Not Just A Girl: Bursting the Bubble

You can listen to the eighth episode with Thao Tran here. Or you can find this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here.

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 8: Bursting the Bubble

Eddy: Hello, friends and welcome to Not Just A Girl, the feminist tattoo podcast where every week I talk to some of my favorite tattooers about their lives and art practice. I'm Eddy and thank you for joining me for episode eight. Today, we talk about mental health awareness and social media and the importance of cultural diversity.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I am honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people. And I pay my respects to the Elders past and present and extend my recognition to their descendants.

I have the great pleasure of speaking to the wonderful and talented Thao Tran today. Thao works at Anderson Street in Melbourne, her delicate work, takes inspiration from Japanese tattoos, manga and cinema, and she has such a wonderful eye for detail and style. Thank you so much for taking the time to be part of the podcast. I'm so excited to chat to you today.

Thao: Thank you for including me in such a empowering community and yeah, I'm excited.

Eddy: Well, you've been a part of Not Just a Girl anyway, doing our flash days in the past.

Thao: Yeah. It's been such a, the first flash day that I did it was such a surreal experience, um, just lines out the door, meeting all these artists that I've always looked up to. And they were just all in one room and it was just, yeah, it was pretty crazy. So well done, getting us all together and doing something good for the community.

Eddy: It was like the best day ever.

Thao: It was really, yeah, it was intense, but just the, the reward and just seeing what could be accomplished is yeah, unfathomable. Like you just can't imagine what an impact it can make. Cause I don't know I'm getting off on a rant, but I feel like tattooing can become quite a bubble and quiet self, you know self rewarding. But when you have an opportunity to do something for things that matter and for communities that are marginalized and it's pretty special,

Eddy: Absolutely, it really expands the possibilities of what tattooing can mean.

Thao: Yes. Yes, definitely.

Eddy: So what have you been doing over the last couple of months? It looks like you've been keeping busy painting and stuff.

Thao: Yeah. So I actually, I actually have been away from tattooing a little bit longer. I was very lucky to be able to go to Japan.

Eddy: Oh wow.

Thao: And on the night that we arrived back to Melbourne was when all the laws changed and the isolation was, um, like mandatory. You had to go into 14 days, and I always thought that after the 14 days I'll be back at work, but halfway through the isolation, um, the new laws came in and it was just no tattooing, nothing so it was just going from one extreme of. You know, holiday, I'm you know, looking back, I'm very grateful now that I had that kind of moment. Cause I know a lot of people unfortunately were meant to be away now. It's pretty upsetting for a lot of people, but it's just that shock, which I'm sure everyone went through with what's going on and having to really question, um, What kind of lifestyle you want to lead. And I think that's been a lot of what I've been doing, kind of reflecting and then. Also part of that is painting things that make me happy, but also I have been doing a lot of commissions still, which is quite similar to tattooing, but I feel like there's a lot more freedom in what you can do with the paint and just trying to learn that way. And also, still trying to balance that whole, um, do I really want to be just so involved in making art for monetary gain all the time and you know it's alot.

Eddy: Absolutely. It's a big challenge because like we're so used to that as tattooers everything we do is about how can I monetize this? And then when you've got that time to sit and paint and create for yourself, it changes your entire outlook. And then you realize, Oh, I actually don't have to do that. And I can just do stuff that makes me happy.

Thao: Yeah, exactly. And then also questioning what does make you happy? You now, like if it makes you happy to just sit and do nothing then that's, that's perfectly fine as well. And I think that's the hard thing cause I think you and me and a lot of other tattooists, on the go all the time. Tattooing at the back of our heads all the time even when we're traveling, we have tattooing at the back of our heads. So now that we're forced into this complete deadline of you just have this kind of, I feel like a lot of people are going through identity crisis.

Eddy: Absolutely. Who am I if I can't tattoo?

Thao: Yeah, exactly, exactly. Or even just being able to hang with the people that you usually have, simple things like that. But um

Eddy: Yeah. And it's so crazy like yesterday, cause they've relaxed the laws. I'm just going to pause for a second. Yeah. Yeah. We just got interrupted by a crazy car alarm going off, but yeah, yesterday the, they lifted the laws. Um, a little bit lifted the restrictions rather a little bit in new South Wales so that you can visit people in small groups and a couple of us from the shop and got together yesterday and it was just so nice. We were all just kind of sitting in a circle in the backyard, just venting and just being like, this is all the shit I've been feeling the last couple of weeks, and I really missed you. And it's so nice just to be in the same space as you again.

Thao: Yeah cause they're your family, it's just like not seeing family for such a long time.

Eddy: Yeah.

Thao: It's really nice, people just crave connection and yeah.

Eddy: Yeah.

Thao: Thank goodness we're allowed to meet up with people again.

Eddy: Yeah. It's funny though, because I always took myself as being quite a hermit or not being particularly social. And then the minute that was taken away from me, it was like, Oh actually, no, I quite like hugging people. And I quite like talking to people and yeah.

Thao: I have gone through exactly the same thing. I'm totally the type of person where, you know, if I'm meant to meet always someone and they cancel on me, I'm like yes...I'll stay home. But I'm exactly the same. I always thought I was a hermit, quite happy just being by myself, but this whole thing, like I said, it's just really, um, It's really highlighted the importance of human connection and also just connecting with, um, nature, you know a lot of people are cooped up in the homes and I feel like a lot of people are really wanting to go out. And I know any bit of grass is just, I can really appreciate it. A lot of people are like I'm just going to the dog park or just getting a little bit of exercise. And I think that really reflects on, um, yeah, like what we actually need as humans.

Eddy: Yes. Yeah, we really do need to reevaluate how we live our lives, I think, and the way that we use our time and what we prioritize.

Thao: A hundred percent. Yes. I totally agree. It's funny cause um, I feel like this is a heartbreaking situation, but there's so many positives that can be taken out of everything that’s happening.

Eddy: Yeah, definitely. What do you think it's, it's done for you in terms of how you approach your work?

Thao: Um, Ooh, that's a loaded question cause. I don't know, I think the biggest thing for me is questioning, um, Where I am and what I can do in the whole bigger picture, if that makes sense. So, me and my friend, David, we've always joked about how, um, if there was ever apocalypse and you'll like, you know they have those little communities where it's like, yes, we'll take the doctor. We'll take the people that can, you know, make bread, I don't know, like whatever. So we'll take all the people that can help, we kind of laugh cause it will be like, Hey, we can like you know draw pictures on you.

Eddy: We're so useful.

Thao: No, but, um, I think it's made me really want to do more things like what Not Just A Girl does. So things like what we did with the Bush fires and everyone coming together as a community and there's people that, um, Really um still doing like charity work for all the health workers and everything like that. So I think it made me question where I want to be in this world and how I want to help others through my art and also, um, finding my voice and what I want to say through art, so that's been really hard because, um, I've always considered myself an illustrator and with tattooing, um, you're pretty much just doing very aesthetic and very, you know, I still think that I am showcasing like female protagonists in a very strong and empowering way.

Eddy: Absolutely.

Thao: Um, I think there's a total different kind of freedom when it's just pure art.

Eddy: Yeah.

Thao: So it's just finding that voice. I don't know if that answers your question.

Eddy: Well, I mean like, like you mentioned, even when you're doing a painting, that's a commission piece and you're still trying to meet the client's specs. You have so much more freedom of expression and so many more opportunities to explore, um, your medium and how like your, your visual language than you do in tattoos. Because we have, we're confined by how it's going to age and how it's going to fit the body and all of that. But in paintings you can do whatever and you've been doing such beautiful paintings.

Thao: Thank you. Yeah, it's, I'm pretty grateful that, um, I get to kind of bring out the old paints and everything again. And just, yeah. I still feel like I'm quiet, like holding onto that um, every line needs to be straight and perfect, you know, it's, it's a very hard habit to let go of.

Eddy: It is. I found myself the other day I was doing a painting and it was just like some flowers with gouache. And then I was like, Oh no, no, no, I can't do that detail there because that won't age well, and then I was like, it's a fucking piece of paper. It doesn't matter. It's not skin. I don't have to worry. I can do all the little details. I don't need black.

Thao: Yeah. I can do this if I wanted to. It's that whole thing when you have too much choice, it becomes overwhelming and you're just like what do I do.

Eddy: Absolutely. And sometimes you find yourself making like little funny, like tattoo habits. Like I'll go to stretch the paper the way I would stretch skin.

Thao: It's just inbuilt in us now.

Eddy: Yeah, it's we just spend our whole lives doing it and then when we're not doing it, we're thinking about it and planning the next one. And it's it's, I think it's really, really good for us to take a moment to practice other things. And even if it's just as simple as going back and practicing the Loomis method on how to draw a head or a hand, or like using a different medium. It just totally changes our perspective. And I think it makes us better tattooers as well.

Thao: Yeah, a hundred percent. I think being able to play with art is just. One, it kind of ignites that passion in that again, which I think when art is a job it becomes so easy for us to get into our heads and go into a block. And, um, you know, it just becomes this whole fight with ego.

Eddy: Yep

Thao: But when we're allowed to play in that again and be loose, it's something really special. And I think that's, this is a good time to be doing that art.

Eddy: Absolutely, you mentioned ego and that's, that's such a huge thing we as tattooers struggle with, Hey, especially when it comes to comparison and looking at other people on social media, is that something you've struggled with at all?

Thao: Um, definitely. And I think everyone in this generation of tattooing have experienced it one way or another, even if you are hyper aware that it doesn't matter, um, having something that's in your face all the time and we are using it nearly every day, whether it be to, um, it used to be just a portfolio thing, and you just put it up, but now you're able to get customers from it. And it is a lot of people's main source of getting customers. And because of that, they're constantly hyper aware of how many likes you're getting how much engagement, um, everything like that. And so when that all comes to play it really, is that in the back of your mind whether something's going to do well or, you know, or you like look up other people's work and you'll just be like, Oh my God, their stuff is like so much better or I wish I could do that. Yeah. I think it's, it's so natural, you know, it's not, um, It's not something that anyone really intends to do.

Eddy: Yeah.

Thao: I think, um, and that's even going, you know, that's even full of people that are just starting out. And I have noticed a lot of apprentices are starting out and they get a really huge following and then, you know, it's a lot of validation and everything like that. And I, on the opposite end it's people that have been doing it for years and years and years and they have absolutely no following, but I'm pretty sure it affects everyone.

Eddy: Yeah.

Thao: And I'm totally rambling right now.

Eddy: No, no you're not at all.

Thao: But I think the whole ego thing is it's good in a way, because. Back then used to just be, you're in a bubble of, you could do something, you'd be like, this is fucking fantastic, it's the best shit ever.

Eddy: I'm revolutionary.

Thao: Exactly. But um, now we have that whole comparison thing and we have that whole validation thing. Um, and I think it's just being able to filter out what you want to take from social media. So, umm. I think it's important to see where you want to aim for and what other people are doing and, you know, building that community is fantastic. But I also think it's really important to really look at your own work and see how you feel about it. And, um, you know, with art in general, you're always wanting to be better. So even if you get 10,000 likes on something, or you get 300 likes or like 10 likes on something, sorry, like it's just, it doesn't matter.

I think what matters most is how you want to interpret the work and how you want to see grow from it. And I think it's always important to umm always be kind to yourself, but also be, um, analytical. And it's just that balance because, um, I think with social media for me personally, it has led me to become overcritical, which feeds back into that whole, um, Artist's block and feeling too much pressure. And then just not even wanting to create anything anymore.

Eddy: Yeah. You see someone doing something so well and you know, it's what you would have hoped to do. And then it's like, Oh, well, why bother?

Thao: Yeah, yes, many times I see things and I'm like mmm I quit.

Eddy: But then yeah, if you quit, there's a lot of people who are going to be like, Oh, I really, really loved her work and her work brought me so much and now what do I do without it? Like, it's like, even though we're critical of ourselves there's other people out there who really enjoy it.

Thao: Yeah, that's the crazy thing you know you. And going back to social media, a lot of people have found that you might not like something. You might not be your favorite thing, but once you put it up there it's suddenly like the biggest, like the most. It's such a weird thing. So it's just so subjective.

Eddy: Yeah. I think like I try to think back to, you know, fine artists, like. I dunno, like, I dunno, Van Gogh or Frida Kahlo or whatever, where maybe their reactions from the audience weren't quite so immediate. So they were able to just focus on creating what they wanted to create without it being shaped by other people's input or perceptions. And then like still being a part of an arts community where they were getting critiques and growing. But I feel like, you know, sometimes we stunt our own growth by like trying to appease the audience too much.

Thao: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. It's I compare it to music where you can create something poppy, that will be like an audience, everyone loves it. It'll get stuck in people's minds or you can create you know, with a lot of soul in it, but might not really appeal to everyone. So I try to keep that in mind.

Eddy: Yeah. Absolutely.

Thao: It's just that balance. Yeah. And I think with artists like Frida Kahlo and Pablo or Van Gogh and everything like that. It was very, um, very personal, you know, a lot of well Frida, especially, it was very, just everything that's gone on in her life and all the emotions. And, um, going back to like us being illustrators, that a little bit different from these artists, is we, are we can't exactly put you know our own pains into someone else.

Eddy: Yeah, there's definitely a little bit more disconnect than what a fine artist gets to do.

Thao: Yeah, exactly. But, um, I do enjoy it when people give me like a really good story on why they want something or I enjoy it when people are just like, I just love this image but I feel like, um, that's where the emotion comes in. Rather from, just from me, it's more little like someone bringing in their story and then us connecting because I might, I feel like empathetic or been through a similar thing so I think that's the good thing about that kind of art, opposed to something thats just so in your bubble of your own experience.

Eddy: Yeah. And it has hates more of an impact, I guess, because you're helping someone else, like express their feelings and shape their life.

Thao: Yeah. A hundred percent. Or even, even if we're not really doing anything big, like some people would just honestly, like I'm just collecting artwork and that makes me just as happy, but it's pretty special whatever kind of relationship you build with your customer.

Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. I always, like, I always joke about how fortunate we are and how grateful I am that people can trust us and love what we do. Like when someone comes to you and says, Oh my God, like, I've been following you for ages, I love all this stuff you do. Can you just do something like this for me? And I will love it. And it's the best

Thao: Yeah, it's such a nice feeling. I think, I think a lot of the things that keep me going is just making people happy, I think, cause I'm sure you've experienced it, but I know a lot of tattooists where we can get really down on ourselves and

Eddy: Yeah.

Thao: Yeah. There's been times when I've just been in such a bad head space and then I'll finish a tattoo, my customer will be so stoked and just be like, this is beautiful, I'm so happy. Like in that moment, you can't help, but be like, yeah, this is nice. What am I even upset about like, this person is just so happy and, you know, I made them happy. So how can it be that bad?

Eddy: [Yeah. I feel like a lot of tattooers I know, do struggle with that, like inner voice and with mental health stuff and it can, it can be so hard to find a balance and to stay positive.

Thao: Yeah. Yeah. It really can be. But I think a lot of the reasons why we, um, I don't know, I think a lot of tattooists struggle with mental health, um, and it kind of makes us very empathetic and sensitive people which is such a huge factor in being able to be, um, Sensitive and empathetic to our customers, you know, we're not just, um, we're not just doing art on a piece of paper. We're like very much so working with other people's energies and everything like that. And, um, people will come in and, you know, share their stories about mental health and what they go through and I think, um, A lot of artists and tattoo, like a lot of tattoo artists, um are able to understand that. And, you know, I think it's quite a beautiful thing and it can be quite a positive thing, but also, yeah, definitely mental health, like that inner voice can be quite detrimental. Um, so it's, it's about building that community and being able to share your experience and you know see how other people have dealt with it and, yeah.

Eddy: [Yeah. And like you've mentioned to me before that, like mental health awareness and human rights are really important for you in particular and like have played a big role in your life.

Thao: Um, So with human rights, um, I share this story with a lot of first generation Aussies, but my mom was actually, my mom and dad were actually, uh, asylum seekers. And I go like that because I was going to say boat people, but that's really derogatory, but um, so for me, My life has been greatly improved by having this opportunity to, um, like even just the whole concept of being a tattooist is crazy because I definitely would not have had the opportunity if I had stayed in the country where, umm I really had to struggle to just mak, just to survive, you know, this freedom to express is quite important. And, uh, my mom and dad have been through so much to get me to this point. And, um, I was actually born in a refugee camp. And my mom brought me over here when I was three months old. So I have no really huge recollection of it.

But, um, seeing how my mum or dad are and everything like that has really made me, um, has it made it really important for me to educate people on how, um, everyone has a right to a good life. There's no, I really don't understand when people would just like, Oh, you know, they shouldn't let too many people in or illegal immigrants and they become gangs and everything like that. Umm it goes back to people just wanting connection. I feel like if you want to create a better country, you need to have this melting pot of culture and you need to have like people contributing. And I think so much of what makes Australia great is this, you know, tapestry of so many cultures and so many things that make it such a beautiful, um, place to be. And yeah, it's great place of opportunity. And I think it's so important to extend that welcome to everyone because

Eddy: A hundred percent, yeah.

Thao: And going back to what my parents experienced in Vietnam, um, My dad actually has, um, paranoid schizophrenia and he's had it since I was 7 so um seeing someone living with mental illness umm and growing up with it, it's very hard. And I think people need to be more aware of how to include people that are living with mental illness. And I, I know there's like so much, um, awareness happening these days, and there's still, um, a lot of organizations that help and a lot of support systems but I think in the day to day life.

Um, just, you know, a lot of people kind of see. I'm just coming up with a um, example things like seeing homeless people, um, and just kind of not showing empathy for the mental illness that they might be going through is, you know, we're like on a day to day basis we're constantly kind of surrounded by these things and we don't really think about it so if we can be a bit more compassionate and aware and also like you know, it's just going back to that whole human rights and inclusion thing. If we're able to create more of a community where we accept people and, um, you know, I feel like it would just solve a lot of problems.

Eddy: It really would. And we do have a, we do have so much potential in this country for diversity and compassion and so many beautiful people here. But at the same time, we have a long standing history of like racism and a lack of support for people with mental illness and a lack of willingness to like adjust our language and behaviors to be more inclusive.

Thao: Yeah. Yeah, it's a slow burn, but I definitely think a lot of people are learning. Yeah. I, she choose to believe that it's from just a lack of awareness or education or just fear and I think the way to combat that is just too umm show through kindness and gentleness that there's a totally different way of thinking that doesn't involve fear and it can be such a, um, brighter solution to that, like holding onto just really old habits of thought and that just don't do any good for anyone.

Eddy: Yeah. And a lot of people don't seem to understand that like the things that they enjoy most in their life come from people of other cultures or come from people with mental health issues, you know, being art and music and tattoos and stuff. Like people like have such an innate need to include art in their lives, but then they don't even consider the people behind that art and how their attitudes might've prevented that art from even being a part of their lives.

Thao: Yeah it, I think that's the sad thing because people want to reap the benefits, but they don't take the time to appreciate. Um, but I think if there was this one story of, um, this Vietnamese restaurant owner in America and he was just saying how, when he first came noone excepted him, but he started to, he opened up this restaurant and he started to make food and the way that he would like bring people in and make friends and like make people feel okay with like having this new ... through his food and sharing that kind of part of the culture. And I think if we're able to. Um, yes, like have all these beautiful things like art and culture and things taken from this diversity and associated with like just not taking, not separating the two, like from multiculturalism and culture, like I think it should be hand in hand. And I think that's, you know, that's the problem. A lot of people just kind of enjoy, you know, a lot of people enjoy yoga and they have no association with it, where its from. That's the danger in, I think it it's such a, like you said, a lot of, of the things that are amazing that we get to experience like art, music and everything like that is just taking from this. We're just so lucky and what's happening is like a dissociation so it's important to bring it hand in hand. Yeah.

Eddy: I think you, you kind of, you communicate that in your work of it as well. Like you always present these beautiful, like strong Asian women in your art that I think they go against some of these like preconceived notions that some Western countries tend to have where they. What's the word? Um, infant infantize, like, I dunno, like Asian women are like seen as this cute little thing, but then you're like, no, she's a warrior.

Thao: Yeah she will cut you. Um, yeah, I it's really weird how, um, this being like, I think a few writers or something back in that day have kind of made Asian women into this, like submissive, you know, even the whole, um, yeah, it's, it's quite interesting how that all came about, but I, I grew up watching, you know, these movies that my mom would get. And they're like horribly dubbed, Chinese movies, and then horribly dubbed into Vietnamese. And they were always really crazy strong females. And I think a lot of that is what influences my work on like, you know, just an aesthetic thing, but I think I am very, um, I am very adamant on not portraying these women as you know. Yeah. Just, um, exotic. Um, what do you call it? Just things to look at it like just pretty you know. I think a lot of my customers are actually Asian women themselves. And I think what might attract them to my work, um, I think is possibly that appreciation for us being portrayed in a very strong way and not just like this figure of imagination where we'll just serve you or you know. Yeah.

Eddy: Yeah. I love how there's, like scifi and horror elements in your work as well.

Thao: Yeah. I think that's just from anime. I think those artists are just so incredible. And just having that, um, playfulness and kind of cheekiness in that, I mean, You know, we were talking about Onnie and I think she's the, um, she's a big example of how you can be like totally, you know, bringing these elements of horror and like Sci-fi and, you know, sexuality and like be so fucking like strong and badass.

Eddy: Yes.

Thao: I think it's pretty cool. Yeah. I think anime definitely does that alot. So whenever I get a chance to put in anything Sci-fi.

Eddy: It lends itself so well to tattooing as well, because you've got these beautiful like line work details, but then like, you know, areas of solid black, areas of like large negative space. And it it's like so high impact imagery, such high impact imagery that. It's just like a perfect little light coupling with tattooing.

Thao: So nice. I, I think, um, I think there's just certain composition and certain aesthetic rules that um I've been influenced by through manga and stuff. I think a lot of the stuff that you, um, do in a comic book translates really well on skin because they have to use really strong lines, really bold, a lot of contrast. I can't take credit for that. I really feel like a lot of my, a lot of my work is very much so, um, influenced by amazing, amazing artist that laid it out for me.

Eddy: Yeah. Is that, is that how you came to use like, cause you, you have a very distinctive black and red color scheme that flows through your work. Is that from manga as well?

Thao: It's funny because when, if you look at my old portfolio of work from when I first started tattooing, um it was all colour realism.

Eddy: Really? I didn't know that.

Thao: Yeah. So I went from colour realism to like neo-trad realism and then I really like started to tone it down. And then I went into like really simple blackwork and then I added in the red. And I think, I think adding in the red actually is just from seeing traditional Japanese tattoos and how back in the day they only had black, gray and red. I just think, I just remember seeing this, um, kind of disturbing, but also really fucking cool when they have like skin from a dead person pinned up. It's like a whole backpiece. It was a perfect Japanese tattoo and it was just black, grey and red. And I just remember thinking that it's all you need like it's just so beautiful. But in saying that like, um, I kind of sometimes enjoy doing color as well. Like yeah. I, I just think, um, if you're. Yeah, I don't know where my brain just went there. But it does this come from. Yeah. Like traditional Japanese tattoos.

Eddy: I love how on your Instagram you've got um in your stories like a little thing of all your inspiration and it's so beautiful to go through and see what inspires your work. And yeah, like the things like cinema and manga and Japanese tattooing and stuff, it's gorgeous. Do you put that there to like kind of, you know, show your intent so that you kind of hopefully attract that back?

Thao: Yeah, I definitely think so. I think, umm. I think one it's paying homage to the people that have just created something so beautiful that I'm just only touching upon, do you know what I mean? I think it's a, it's a big thing to give credit where credit's due.

Eddy: Absolutely.

Thao: Yeah, like, um, it is to attract, you know, a lot of people be like, Oh my God, I love that. I would love that you know, a tattoo that's influenced by that. And that brings me so much joy in a lot of my customers, you know, we just like geek out on the same manga or anything like that which is always fun. Um, So, yeah, a huge part of that is attracting that kind of on the same thought, but I think also it's, you know, um, I think it's so important to share these things because, um, it's just good to see keep on inspiring people and it's good to, you know, a lot of people are like, Oh, you know, I love your work cause of this and this and then I'll be able to be like, Oh, if you like that you should read this manga or you should watch this movie and, you know, go from there. Cause I think it's, it's such a cool thing to have that curiosity. Yeah, it's good fun.

Eddy: Yeah. Well, some of the images you've posted, like I've never seen before and they're so beautiful and it's like, Oh my God, I need to find more of that. I love that aesthetic. Like what is going on here?

Thao: I think we can all benefit from it you know, whatever you want to take from these movies or anything like that. It's really cool. It's also just like um, refreshing way to kind of, um, be creative, I guess. I think when you're constantly just looking at tattoos um you can end up, how do I word this? You can end up just going round in circles. If you are able to expand what inspires you and you know and share that with other artists. And I think it's contributing to creating like a whole community of really cool things that can come out of it.

Eddy: Absolutely. Yeah when we, when we only look at tattoos and really like limit the pool of inspiration, and then I think tattooing ends up getting watered down into like, and just becoming quite mediocre. And it's the people who are doing like you know, really revolutionary stuff who are not even looking at tattoos. They're just like creating something completely separate. They're taking inspiration from the natural world or from street art or whatever, whatever the source. And then they're just kind of inventing their own way of translating that into tattoo. And that's what brings more interest and diversifies what we do.

Thao: Yeah, I think it's definitely pushing the industry forward and that's not to say like, you know, I highly appreciate traditional tattooing, I think it is like so pure, but it is also amazing, amazing, to always like once in a while you stumbled across something and you're just like, You're so unique, you're so like free in your expression and it's not it's you can tell that they've just been influenced by something completely separate to tattooing. And I think that's, that's really special too.

Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. I think it's so nice though, that, you know, and you can see it in your work that there's a really strong respect for traditions and a love of those traditions, but also like a real hunger and desire to move forward and to try new things. And you've got like this really beautiful, um, combination of like traditional and modern.

Thao: Yeah, I'm starting to like go into that mode where you're like ah no that's shit.

Eddy: No, don't do that. Take a compliment.

Thao: The inner voice.

Eddy: I think we're. We're socialized a little bit to do that, to be like, no, you have to be humble. You have to say no I'm shit. And that's the only way to respond to a compliment.

Thao: I'm going to correct, thank you. I think I really would like to, um, Yeah, I think I really would like to bring in a bit more tradition in, I feel like, um, as much as I love crazy modern things and everything like that, um, I really do. I'm really starting to appreciate in my, um, later years of tattooing, how something might heal better. And when, I mean, when I say traditional, I'm not saying like, things without bold lines are going to be like, you know, bad, I've seen crazy watercolor type stuff that just heals perfect and it looks amazing years after. I just mean traditional in the way where, um, certain principles um, are really important. Like how it sits on the body and stuff like that. Like, I have a friend who is always showing me bodysuits and things that, uh, um, you know, it's designed to sit on the body like specific body part or anything like that, I think um, aI kind of want to bring that back in, so yeah, I, I. I hope to marriage the two a bit more, the modern and traditional. Yeah.

Eddy: I feel like that, that's a really natural progression. Like as, as we, you know, go along in the years and start to see stuff coming back and how it's aging over the long term, then we can start to appreciate those traditions a bit more on why they were put in place in the, in the beginning and how we can utilize them. I've definitely like started making my own work a lot larger and putting more space in between the lines and kind of really putting my foot down with, you know, size and placement and all of that.

Thao: That's such a hard thing isn't it cause people they have this image in their head and you know, it's nerve racking for people to come in and you're like this is how big it's going to be.

Eddy: Yeah. I get butterflies going to customers and saying it needs to be twice the size please don't hate me.

Thao: Yeah. It's, you know, cause we're just people pleasers. We want to do something beautiful for you, but I think, um, at the end of the day if you want to do that, is that kind of thing where you're like, no this is actually, what's going to be better for you. It's going to be a better tattoo. And I think it's just presenting it in a way where you're just like, please trust me. I just want the best for you, I do not care about, you know, it's not about my own thing. I actually just want you to have a clear, well healing tattoo so please let me do this for you.

Eddy: It's so weird as well, like every now and then I'll have a customer who will come in and I'll draw it up and I'll print it out and be like, Oh, are you happy with this size? And they're like, Oh no, I wanted it twice the size of that. And I'm just like, oh what are you sure?

Thao: It's massive just like Oh, okay.

Eddy: It's almost like you're ready for that fight of like, no, let's, let's make it bigger. And then they're like double the size.

Thao: The unicorn customer.

Eddy: That's awesome

Thao: But I think like, um, I think alot of it is that fear of pain or being too overwhelmed with the image but I think that goes back to being empathetic.

Eddy: Yeah.

Thao: I think if you're like really pushy, and you're just like no you have to make it bigger, they'll be like, who the fuck is this person? I don't even want a tattoo form you anymore. Yeah, I think with someone like you would probably be like, you know, I think this is like the better option, I think people really appreciate that, so.

Eddy: Yeah. It's actually taken me a long time to learn how to deal with that. I think in the beginning I was a bit like, no, and then I had to learn how to communicate and, you know, try to like explain why it's for my customer's benefit and yeah, the reason behind it.

Thao: Yeah. Cause you know, we're in a bubble like everyone, you know, we spend so much time with tattooers and we're, you know, it just makes perfect sense to us. And its like remember to be like, Oh yeah, like these customers, they don't know any of that. Like their knowledge of tattooing is like maybe what they've seen on Instagram or wherever.

Eddy: Or reality TV

Thao: Yeah, what you can't do a whole backpiece in one day?

Yeah. So I think it's hard to um, remember that sometimes it's just one of those things you've got to learn, with dealing with people and explaining things.

Eddy: Yeah, definitely. I think everything we do is just about finding the balance.

Thao: Yes. Everything.

Eddy: Well, I guess before we finish up today, is there anything else you wanted to like touch on or tell our listeners?

Thao: Mmm. I've talked everyone's ears off enough so.

Eddy: I'm sure they're going to love it and appreciate it.

Thao: I've had a really good time today I really appreciate this chance to have a voice and hopefully um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what people will get out of this but I think as a whole, the Not Just A Girl community's doing great things so it's really good.

Eddy: Well, thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your story though, especially about your parents. I feel like a lot of people will really be able to relate to that and, you know, maybe feel like they're not alone just from hearing your story

Thao: Yeah. Yeah. That's the thing with mental illness or anything um, a lot of people would feel like quiet isolated or alone in their experience. And I think being able to create awareness... as we've touch upon. And having that feeling of you're not alone this is quite important. I hope that's something people can get out of this. Yeah.

Eddy: I think they will, definitely. Well, to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. And if you'd like to watch the footage of our chat, it'll be on our YouTube channel. Um, you'll also be able to see regular updates and get more information from our blog and from our Instagram, not just a girl underscore tattoo. So please subscribe, like, follow, head over to Thao's, Instagram, and like, and follow and leave lovely comments. Um, I hope you all enjoyed the little chat and I hope you have a wonderful day and try to take a moment to indulge in some art and broaden your horizon. Thank you so much.

Thao: Thank you.