You can listen to the fifth episode with Brody Calypso here. Or you can view the footage of this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here.
NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Season 1, Episode 5: Destroy Normal
Eddy: Hello friends and welcome to Not Just A Girl, the feminist tattoo podcast where every week I talk to some of my favorite tattooers about their lives and art practice. I'm Eddy and thank you for joining me for episode five. Today we'll be talking about client safety, how tattoos can change your relationship with your body and the importance of diversity.
Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I'm honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people. And I pay my respect to the Elders past and present and extend my recognition to their descendants.
Today we are joined by the fabulous Brody Calypso. They work at Crucible Tattoo in Melbourne, and they do a really diverse variety of tattooing, particularly neo traditional, with a little bit of queer flavor here and there, lots of Australian flora and fauna. Um, I've had the great privilege of working with Brody at my studio when they've guested. Um, and the way they hold such a kind and welcoming space for their clients has had a huge impact on my own work practice. Um, thank you so much for joining me today, Brody. Um, I've been so excited to chat to you.
Brody: Yes. Thanks for having me
Eddy: Absolutely. So, you know, talking about the way you interact with your clients. Um, something that really stood out to me the first time I ever saw you, um, working was the way, um, you like really include consent as in like every aspect of your work practice. Um, to give our listeners some insight. What's the tattoo process generally look like for you.
Brody: I guess the process to me usually comes, um, you know, I'll, I'll receive a brief from the clients. Um, and I like to do the design process pretty close to the actual tattooing time. So I don't tend to send out designs or anything like that because I like to keep it really immediate. So, um, generally, uh, when, when a client comes in, it'll be the first time they've seen a design. And so I'm really aware that that approach of my creative process, um, can kind of put people on the spot a little bit. So I try and go, um, I guess that extra mile to make sure there's heaps of space for people to, uh, I guess like voice, any doubts that they have about it.
You know, I think for a lot of people in our society, particularly the sort of people that I tend to tattoo more often, you know, like women, queers, you know, um, I guess people who are drawn to my work and my identity, my personality. Um, a lot of those people have been disempowered to make choices about their bodies for whatever reason. You know, there's a lot of complex social reasons for why that happens. Um, and you know, that's happened with me in the past in a variety of different contexts. You know, it's not always easy to say no, especially when there's a power dynamic, you know? Uh, so. You know, any, any, any situation we've got a power dynamic like that, whatever it looks like.
Um, for example, tattoo artist and client, you know, I'm in my comfortable space. I'm the professional, you know, I, I have all this power and yes, the client has the power, uh, um, you know to to say, no, they don't want it or anything like that. But I think I really try and be aware of, you know, the advantages of being in my own space and I'm really in my element, you know, often the client's quite nervous. Maybe it's that first tattoo, maybe they haven't had great experiences in the past. Maybe they've asked for changes in the past and been dismissed, or maybe they've asked for breaks in the past and been laughed at. You know, I just don't know what the history of the person who comes in is going to be. So I think that, um.
It's really important for me, the person who holds more power in the situation to make sure that, um, I'm creating a situation of, I guess, active consent. You know, I think that the tattooing process, it's really intense. It involves a lot of trust, physical intimacy, vulnerability and pain, and for a lot of people, all of those things are connected to trauma in one way or another. So I just try and be really aware of that and try and, um, create a space where people can consent. They can say yes or no, because if you can only say yes, then. You know, that's not really consent. So, um, I guess that's the way that I try and mitigate the potential for harm in tattooing because, you know, we've all heard stories, you know, not just tattooists, like anyone who knows a bunch of people who've been tattooed. So I've heard the stories about the tattoos that people have complex relationships with might be a beautiful piece of art, but the process wasn't comfortable. And, uh, it's really important to me. I think the process is just as important as the final work. Because it's going to shape that person's relationship to the tattoo and therefore, their own body and that's, that's really important to me in my work, is that my tattoos can improve somebody's relationship with their bloody, not undermine it.
Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. It's, um, it has the potential to be really, really empowering and completely reshape the way you view your own body. And, um, I know that you've mentioned like how you like to use it to reclaim your body and especially using it to deal with those traumas that are related to the body. Um, how tattooing getting, how's getting tattooed helped you with your own relationship with your body?
Brody: I think getting tattooed for me has. It's created a sense of agency autonomy over my body. You know, like having grown up in a society where for a variety of reasons, I didn't always have control over what happens to my body. Um, and I think that that's true of a lot of people. You know, whatever ways our bodies are marginalised, you know, those experiences are internalized. So for me to be able to make a permanent choice about my body, that's my choice and to adorn my body as well is really powerful. You know, to say that not only is this mine, but it is beautiful and therefore worth decorating and adorning, and then I have this collection of work that I've curated and chosen and collaborated on. Um, that, I guess. When people see me, I think you can see a lot about me by the works that I've chosen to collect. So I think it's both the process of enacting that power within our own bodies and also, uh, the, the intentionality of the choices that we make as well. Uh, but I think that a really cool thing for me has been just the, the, the transformative power of adornment. To say, this is a thing that is worth admiring, I think is really powerful for me
Eddy: It is it's, it's, so the more you think about how powerful it is, what we do, like, you know, we're aware that it's not essential that it is a luxury item, but at the same time, like I really think tattooing is an important part of the human experience. We've been doing it for thousands and thousands of years, and there's a reason for that. And like the power that you can get from claiming your body and being like, this is beautiful, this is how I want to be. It's like it's special.
Brody: Yeah. And that's something that I really, really try and emphasize and explore in the parts of my practice where I have a particular focus on working with people who have scars, usually self harm scars. Um, and I have those scars as well. So I think that, um, being on both sides of the experience, um. Yeah. It makes it an interesting experience for both, both of us, because my emphasis is really on transforming the relationship with those complex histories. You know, whenever people will come to me wanting to cover or hide first, I think it's important to manage expectations. You know, if you've got textured skin, it's always going to, it's always going to show you through, but I like to emphasize that that's not a problem because we're reframing and we're transforming and you know where it was once perhaps a self destructive act. We're now reframing that into, into a constructive and self-loving act.
And so I think that, yeah, that can be really powerful as well
Eddy: It's so amazing when you have the opportunity to do that for someone. The difference between them when they walk in the door and when they walk out, it's like. It's mind blowing, like just the way they walk, the look on their face, like how they hold themselves, how they look in the mirror even.
Brody: Yeah, gives me a little prickle.
Eddy: So beautiful. We're so lucky to get to do what we do.
Brody: Absolutely.
Eddy: And it's, um, it kind of really, really like brings to light how important it is to to make an effort to make your practice safe and welcoming, and so many tattooers had a lot to learn in, in that regard. Because yeah, we have the potential to compact trauma to make people like feel wrong in their bodies. There's a lot of, um, shaming of different body types. You know, you see people being told, I have a friend who was told that they couldn't get tattooed because of the color of their skin. Which is just horrifying. And the total lack of like skill too, because you can tattoo any skin.
Brody: It's just laziness ultimately. And yeah people projecting their own prejudices onto the kind of collaborations they want to do.
Eddy: Yeah.
Brody: Yeah. And I think even selfishly for me, you know, um, I would rather go to work and collaborate with equals then create this kind of hierarchy and antagonistic relationship where I'm, we're trying to extract value from each other. You know, it's so much more beautiful to go home at the end of the day and like, you know, want to cry with joy because of the relationships that I've formed in these, in these works. You know, it's just, I just can't imagine doing it any other way.
Eddy: Yeah, that's amazing. And I think by doing that, you get to like your clients walk away just with so much joy. I know that, um, I've spoken to some people after they've been tattooed by you and seeing their tattoos healed and you honestly even just like your name, they light up. Like you bring them so much joy because of that experience. It was so wonderful for them that it, yeah, it goes beyond even the tattoo.
Brody: Yeah. I think everyone deserves that. So.
Eddy: And, um
Brody: Yeah,
Eddy: I love how you kind of bring that into everything you do as well. Like, um, I've been seeing that recurring tagline and your art and merch and stuff. of Destroy Normal. Um, can you tell our listeners about that? Because I love it.
Brody: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, I think the idea of destroy normal has been brewing in me for a very long time. Um. It originally emerged in that flash sheet that it first appears on, I think in 2018 and it was actually in response to, um, some transphobic straight harassment that I got. And I actually channeled that, that by on that and that rage and discomfort and pain into creating that sheet, which was a bit of a turning point in my practice, which I'm so joyful and grateful for, even though it was a really unpleasant experience. Um, and the idea of just destroying normal for me is, I guess, especially relevant as a non-binary person.
You know, I'm a non-binary trans person and I'm not, I'm not moving between two fixed points. I'm, I'm always influx and so, there are a lot of fixed categories that are not available to me, and I think the, yeah, the power of destroy normal to me is about to rejecting the idea that we can reform a system that restricts resources and safety to uh, people who fall into this inner circle of normal and that we can reform that by gradually expanding this cycle until eventually one day it includes everyone and this beautiful utopian future. But I, I reject that idea. I think that, um, it's we we've seen in history that as soon as a group is included in that, in that idea of normal, that they no longer really have any incentive to, to fight for the people on the outside and they suddenly have the power. So, um, and you know, I, I've seen a lot of, uh, of campaigns, you know, particularly in the gay marriage campaigns that happened in Australia, or this idea of, with, we're just like you, you know, we're all the same and I just. I just think that that seem, that's such a shame. It's such a waste. You know, we're not all the same.
We're all so different. And I would rather live in a world that celebrates innovation, uniqueness, and difference, um, and affords resources and safety to, to everyone. Um, rather than just the people who can assimilate, the people who can pretend to just be like you. I don't want to erase a huge part of who I am in order to fit into that, I don't think anyone else should have to either.
Eddy: And assimilation, it's such a colonizer's way of approaching society. It's, and it, you're right that it is, it's not enough to just like reform society because the problem is patriarchy and capitalism and all that. It's not, you can't reform it. You can't fix it. You just have to do away with it. It's the only way to move forward.
Brody: Absolutely. And those ideas of like, yeah, patriarchy and white supremacy and colonialism. We'll always have, um, members of the marginalized group who are, who are sort of held up as, as you know, the good ones, the ones who can fit into that idea of normal. And I think that that is harmful to every single group that it happens to. So yeah, that's why I Destroy Normal
Eddy: It's so limiting, and you know, like you pass as what we deemed to be okay. So, you know, we'll use you as a token to make everyone know that we're alright too. Yeah.
Brody: Yeah, absolutely.
Eddy: It kind of, um, I feel like it encourages our, um, ignorance, like, it took me a long time to even learn about the fact that there were different genders because I was so conditioned that in this binary and in all these like really rigid ideas about what people had to be in order to be successful and work in society. And you know, we just all go through life with our blinkers on and you know, it limits our potential for what we can create and how we can contribute to the world.
Brody: It's so true. You know, I have this really distinct memory of myself. Um, somewhere between the ages of seven and nine. Of, I'd encountered this idea of trans as somebody who's born in one body and belongs in another, and the very, very binary idea. I remember asking, asking myself, in my primary school playground? Am I that and just not being able to imagine myself as a boy. You know, I, I in my child brain, and I had thought I would miss being a girl too much. Uh, and so I was like, okay, well, I guess that's not me. And then, you know, nearly 20 years later, finally realizing that there were other options to that and other ways to be, uh, and, you know, I've never been more comfortable and more powerful. So I think, yeah, I think eroding those ideas of normalcy and the right way to do things, it's, yeah. It's only going to empower people.
Eddy: Yeah. Do you think that, um, you know, kind of just, you're by your nature and wanting to destroy normal, that that's part of why you become a creative because you know, you do printmaking, you do painting, you do tattooing, you know, you just seem to be like completely creative in every cell of your body, you play banjo. Like, do you think that that's, that's all a part of just like who you are and that's why you've ended up in tattooing?
Brody: I honestly don't know. I can't really remember a time when I wasn't creating. Um. It's just all I've really done since a very young age. And you know, I've had other passions and stuff, but it's just kind of being the continuing thread. But it's, it's even funny that you mentioned banjo because until less than a year ago, I had this notion in my head that I couldn't be a musician because that's a different kind of creativity and, you know, I couldn't do that. Um, so I think, yeah, it's, it's really, it's really funny that you ask in that way, but I think that I've I've always had an agenda and drive to innovate and to imagine. And I think that that really is the common thread through everything I produce.
Eddy: Yeah. And cause you like, you know, you don't seem to ever just do something for the sake of itself. Like there's always a message embedded in everything you do, which is why I love you, obviously.
Brody: Well yeah. I think that's really important because, um, and you know, this was a big question that I was asking myself, especially when, uh, I was at art school, when I was asking what kind of art do I want to create, because I kind of had these two parts of myself, I had the part of myself that was the activist. And then the part of myself that was the artist. And it just seemed, you know, why, why, why are these two separate things? What if I could make them the same thing? And so I guess over the last, you know, seven or eight years of my, I guess, like political awakening, um. I've been asking myself; how can I use this thing that is core to who I am and that I'm really good at that’s creating and use it to make the world a better place? Um, and so I'm always asking, how can I do that? And you know, the answer looks very different each day, which is really exciting.
Eddy: That's awesome. Well, um, you have been working on some, a really, really cool project, which I, I love the idea of, and you know it's so inclusive and it's just, it's so perfect. Um, did you want to tell the listeners about your jockstraps?
Brody: Yes. It's funny. This is actually a project that I initiated, and it must have been nearly three years ago, I think. Um, I, I found myself, you know uh, my, my, my fashion style changes a lot as my gender shifts. And so I find myself, um, you know, in a lot of different kinds of clothes and I wanted to wear jockstraps cause they're fucking hot, you know, who doesn't want that. And I just couldn't find any that fit me. You know, like these, these garments are designed for cis men and you know, usually a particular size and shape as well. Um, and I thought, you know, there's gotta be someone that's, that's made these to fit other kinds of bodies, and there may be, but I just really couldn't find it and started kind of, I guess as a last resort, I took out my sewing machine and, you know, I've got some scraps of fabric and then made something, to be honest, it was kind of simpler than making a pouch to just make a flat panel, like, like a pair of briefs. But in that, in that shape. So I had this prototype and, um, I just never got around to making it for anyone else cause I was too busy tattooing. So here is the, the hidden blessing of all this time where I can't tattoo and I've decided to expand that project, um, and offer people uh, I guess, yeah, their own, their own jock straps that that will fit a variety of bodies. So I'm hoping to do them to order so that they can be custom sized so that, you know, anyone can pick what colors make them feel cutest, as well as having it like fit perfectly. Because I think that's so important. I think so often we forget that clothes are made for bodies and we say, my body is wrong for this.
Eddy: Yeah
Brody: You know. Instead of saying these pants had two types. You'll say, my body is too big. And I think that, um, that going back to more of that slow and personalized production of clothing is like a way of undermining that. Because. You know, how could the body ever be wrong for a thing that's made for the body? So I, yeah, I wanted to make something that, that fits, that feels good. Uh, you know, uh, I'm making it in my home. My dog is really stoked working from home, and I also thought it would be really cool to, uh, uh, incorporate some screen printing into it as well. So, um incorporating some popular flash designs that I've done so that people can still be wearing my art, but in this sort of interchangeable way, you know, you can wear a different thing there each day, a different design. So that's, that's the project that I'm really excited about. I think it would probably be, uh, at least another few weeks before I can, before I can launch it. But I'm sort of getting it all ready behind the scenes.
Eddy: That's so amazing. And it's, it's funny how you say that about how can our bodies be wrong? Because I know that I've spent my entire life getting really stressed out. Cause I love fashion, but fashion doesn't always fit my body. Like, um, you know, I, I've had like surgeries which make my body hurt in places and clothes make it really uncomfortable. And I'm always like, why? What's wrong with me? Why can't I have a normal body that fits clothes? And like. Clothes aren't made for everyone they made for this like ideal. That's this like white you know, binary, perfect little person that doesn't even exist.
Brody: And how interesting that you ask, why can't I have a normal body? What is a normal body? It's certainly not the body represented. If you look at averages that's not reflected in the idea of normal. So it's not even, it's not even accurate. It doesn't even hold water.
Eddy: And it's so crazy how much we conditioned to hate ourselves. And I feel like that's where like those with power do get control. Because if we spend our whole lives hating ourselves then we're so much easier to manipulate, and you know, even in this lockdown situation, I had a moment the other day where I was like, Oh I've gained weight and now I'm not going to be able to wear my clothes. And you know, I'm so upset. And then it was like, wait, that's that is so fucking fat phobic of me to say, because I would never look at another person's body and say that and like, no, fuck that. All bodies are beautiful and they do a damn good job of putting up with us. I know that, you know, you and I always talk about, you know, having both, having like various chronic conditions like. Yeah. Our bodies
Brody: And yet here we surviving and thriving and being able to do the things that we do. You know, it's so easy to forget to be grateful for that, I think. Um, and especially that, that the frustration there is that the clothes won't work. You know? Make the clothes work. So yeah, I think that that's like, that's an angle that I want to explore for a little bit while I'm not tattooing so much,
Eddy: That's awesome. Please tell me that you have a burning cop car screen printed on one of your jock, jock straps.
Brody: There will be, yes, this is the. This is the other exciting thing is that, you know, I've, I've gotten some really interesting and excited responses from some of these more incendiary designs that I've done, you know, some literal, some not, you know, that's the burning cop cars there's the, the knives and stillettos with queers smash back and stuff like that. Um. And a lot of people are really excited to see these designs because they speak to them and their experiences and their frustrations. Um, but a lot of people don't feel safe to get them for really obvious reasons. You know, like you don't know what situations you're going to end up in, so having those designs on garments that you can take off, I just think it opens up a lot of scope for people to feel safe to engage with those, you know, um, releases of frustration that that can, that can be felt in playing with those designs I think.
Eddy: Yeah, it's, it's really interesting how people do get really scared to wear their activism. I remember last time you guested and you had some stickers with some of your, like more like political designs on them and people and nervous to even take the stickers.
Brody: Yeah. Which is so funny because in a specific way, because, uh, you know, those were a series of four, and then two of them were botanical designs, and two of them were queer designs, and one of them was a, uh, as a burning cop car. Um, and those, those are the ones I always run out of first. So it's interesting because they're the most popular, but people are still often nervous. So it's this really interesting tension where people are like afraid to engage with it for really obvious reasons. You know, it represents a lot of danger. And so to resist such a strong and violent status quo, but people can't help but be drawn to it as well. That's really interesting.
Eddy: Yeah, I love, I thought it was so fascinating and you know, I love how, um, you made a comment to me about how you like you know, you promote aggressive queerness and I love, I love that in your, in your work so much and how, how that's a part of your practice and your like encouraging people to wherever they're comfortable to, to, to not be scared and to just be like, fuck it, this is me.
Brody: Yeah. I think that, I think that, um, yeah, there are certain. Scenarios that a lot of people are in where it's not safe to explore those, those things. And that's really heartbreaking and devastating when that happens. Um, I think for a lot of us, a lot of that fear is in anticipation though. It's in anticipation of, of this sort of looming threat of, you know, of, of losing love, not being worthy of desire, all these things. And I think that sometimes we can call that bluff when it's safe to do so. And the more we call that bluff, the more we're empowering and permitting other people to do the same. So, but I would never, I would never judge somebody for not feeling safe to do that, or, you know, I don't think that you need to be out and visible to be queer, or to be powerful. But you know, the more of us who are, the better, the better it is for all of us, I think.
Eddy: Yeah. And that's what's really exciting about the tattoo community now that there are more groups of, um, dif, like different marginalized groups who are starting to like realize the power of community that they have and hold each other up and their voice is getting louder and louder and they finding more platforms and they're making more space and taking up more space like in the tattoo community. And then I think that sets a really good example for their clients to then go and do the same out in the world.
Brody: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like there's big change that's happened in the last wee while in the tattoo world. You know, like it's changing so much technologically all the time. Like I can, you know, I, I've heard stories that they've been, how it was, you know, five, 10 years ago before the internet was such a big part and platform of how it works. And yeah, I'm really excited to see how that plays out for voices that haven't traditionally been a part of that conversation.
Eddy: Yeah. It'll be really interesting as well, like in this post COVID world, how, how we adjust and and use that like I think there are some potential benefits that we can do, like little things. Like I, I saw some family the other day cause we were allowed to visit like two people at a time and they asked for hugs. People don't normally stop and ask for hugs. And so that like opens up the world for people who aren't comfortable with that, to either say yes or no and to give permission. And like, I think that yeah, we could potentially, if we, if we take hold of this properly and if we fight for our rights, we could really shape the world. You know obviously that's very, very overly positive properly, probably because you know, there's a lot of bad things as well to fight, but you know, we do have the potential to change things to our benefit.
Brody: I think it is optimistic, but I think that's necessary. You know, there's always, there's always going to be challenges in life and that that is an opportunity for change as well, which we've already seen in so many ways. I think that, um, a lot of the time people are quick to criticize for idealism or optimism. But for me that that is power and direction. You know, there's this really, really beautiful poem, um, that, uh, I can't remember the name of right now, but I'll write it to you after, after we finished talking, um, that it talks about utopia and, uh, it compares it to the horizon and it says, uh, in a terrible English translation of the poem, every two steps I take towards it, it recedes two steps like the horizon. What then is the use of utopia and the use is that it's good for walking. It's good to advance. It's good to walk towards this, you know, perpetually receding distance. You know, I don't think it's about, uh, achieving the full breadth of our own personal utopias because that's somebody else's hell. But I think that optimism and idealism is critical for keeping us moving towards the things that we can dream off.
So I think that's really important. And I think that, um, you know, you know, talking about how it's changed the way that we interacted with each other spaces and stuff like that. You know, more conscientious about asking for consent and things like that. Something that I'm personally really, uh, cautiously optimistic and excited about as a, as a chronically ill person is that we might take illness more seriously. You know, so often over the last half, a decade of my compromised immune system, I have been at work with people who have come to work sick or clients who have come to work sick or you know, whatever customers of any of the businesses I've worked in. And then I've been floored for two weeks while they recover in like two or three days. And, uh, you know, I think that that comes from the pressures of capitalism. You know, it's not, you know, it's not about personal defect or anything. It's, you know, we have this pressure to push through that that's always impacted, I think, vulnerable bodies disproportionately. Uh, and so I'm really excited to see how this might shift to taking illness and health more seriously now. Now that we have experienced I guess yeah how critical that can be.
Eddy: Absolutely. It's also highlighted just how important having a really strong medical system in place is, and also I think seeing the consequences of isolation, how important mental health awareness and help is as well. Like I think, yeah, that's another thing that we can hopefully be optimistic about that, that there's changes made in that respect.
Brody: I'd like to see that, it would be nice
Eddy: And I think. I think that's where like we have a really important role in this potentially new world because you know, people have been in isolation and they, they've been like, they haven't been touched for a long time. And for some people having a platonic interaction with no expectations of pressure. It's just like really, really important for their wellbeing. So when people come and finally come back and get tattooed by us and they can be held and it's warm and it's inviting and it's safe, and they're also like changing their body in a way that makes them feel good, it's going to like, I think we can really help people deal with a lot of like their trauma moving forward from here as well.
Brody: Yeah, I think so too. It's been funny and you're talking about how isolation might've changed our relationship, shifted our relationship to intimacy and things like that. You know, something that I've already noticed is like, you know, like a good friend of mine has told me that in the past, she's never, you know, she's never felt comfortable like taking and sending nudes before, but you know, now that she didn't really have any alternative she's found the experience really empowering. And similarly for me, you know, I've been sharing more of those images with my good friends, you know, rather than the people I might've been in the past, which has also been really gorgeous and healing. So, yeah, there's some really exciting changes afoot, you know, as well.
Eddy: It's so nice to celebrate the human body. Like, and if you can send nudes, even if they are like for sexual purposes, or even just sending them just to your friends is actually really, really lovely. I had a friend send me one the other day and I was like, this just made my day like this stuff made me feel really good seeing you so comfortable in your body. That's so beautiful.
Brody: It's gorgeous isn't it
Eddy: Um, one thing I would love to ask. Is how, like, you know, cause I know you have a lot of really amazing ideas about how to go about tattooing and how to treat clients. How do you think like other artists or myself can kind of come back to tattooing and offer like a safer experience for clients?
Brody: It's a really a difficult question for me to consider answering because I think everyone is as different in approaches as our art is, and going back to this idea of of diversity, I think that that's really important. You know. Uh, I don't, my style doesn't work for everyone. You know, I can be very blunt and direct and outspoken. And for some people that can be too much. It can be a strong flavor, you know? Whereas for other people that like that, you know, um, softer, gentler, maybe more polite way of communicating is more comfortable. So I would be reluctant to offer advice to anyone in that sense because it's not a one size fits all thing. And I never was, you know, I think the more different different we all are the more resilient we are, the community, the more we can offer really different clients. Um, but I think if there's like one thing that, that is really important for me to focus on, it's to make sure that people have space to express themselves, even if that means no, or even if that means, you know, we don't get to see the work that we want to see.
Eddy: Yeah
Brody: You know, I think paper's is great for that, you know? And so, yeah, I think that that's, that's the big thing for me is to meet everyone as an equal and know that they're the one who's going to have to wear it. So at the end of the day, that's, that's the important thing for me.
Eddy: Just like putting egos aside, but still celebrating all of our differences.
Brody: Yeah. And still being honest when there is an approach that could work better, because I think we all serve our clients, you know?
Eddy: Yeah. Yeah, that's, um, I kind of like struggle with, you know, sometimes, you know, a client will ask for a change or whatever and I'll just be like, no. And then I've kind of, it's very abrupt and very like in your face, and then I'm like, no, no, no, like, kind of pull myself back. Okay. This is why I don't think that would work from a technical point of view. I really want to do a good tattoo for you. Can we like talk about maybe these other options instead? And kind of trying to learn to adjust to like, like I saw you doing like asking for more permission from your clients and and stuff and rather than just going straight to the no and cutting it off, they're like, I, I used to when I was younger, like in my early years of tattooing and now trying to actually have a conversation with the customer.
Brody: And that is another reason and I keep all discussions of the design to the day cause then it's a face to face collaboration. It's just us talking and you know, I can, I can answer those potential changes with this is up to you and at the end of the day we'll do it however you think these are the reasons that I've made these choices and these are why it might last better. It might be more readable from a distance, you know, there might be higher contrast on your skin, like whatever reason it is, and the vast majority of the time, people are really appreciative for that and they're like, I see why you've made that choice now. Now I'm happy with it. And people will say, look, I hear what you're saying. I just really want it this way. And then I'm like, okay. Okay. We've had this conversation, we've managed your expectations. You're not going to come back to me in 10 years time and be like, why didn't it last? You know, we've actually negotiated as equals.
Eddy: Yeah.
Brody: And respected each other in that. So I think that's for most people, that's all it takes.
Eddy: Yeah. And some people are never explained to like I've had people write me emails like, cause I, I do all my consultations via email generally, and I'll explain something to them. They'll write back and they'll be like, I have been told no by 10 other tattooers. I have never had one person take the time to explain that to me, and that changes everything and I'm really, really grateful. And it's just like, it took five minutes of my time.
Brody: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that we shouldn't underestimate the potential that is fast to learn something from it as well, because maybe we've always been told that it won't work. You know, like, you know, I've always learned that, you know, outlines should be in black or gray and like that's the way it lasts the best and you're not, this is the way we've always done it. And you know, sometimes I've had this conversation with clients that they've be like, look I just really want it to be lined in color, you know? And then the first time that happened, I made a compromise with them and I'm like, okay, can we mix the color with black? So we have elements of both of our desires in this? And he said yes. And it was really challenging. And it's one of the best tattoos I've ever done, and it actually ... the direction of my work that I never would have taken that risk on my own. And so he's really happy. I'm happy, I've done really interesting and work for other people as a result, you know, actually coming together, collaborating as equals, rather than me being like, no, this is how it's done. So I think we can learn from the creativity of our clients as well.
Eddy: I agree, a hundred percent because while I think it's really important to respect the traditions of tattooing, it's also important to disrupt them every now and then and challenge them. Because you know things change and like technology changes and our inks change and stuff. And sometimes if you don't at least try, you just don't know like, you know, I've over the course of the years that, uh, I've been tattooing for 10 years and I've tried all different line weights, all different kinds of colors and approaches and, and you know, I've found what works for me, for the kind of people that I generally tattoo. And like you know now I'm at a point where I can be like, you know, hey, like this is what works for me. And even with my apprentice, like I'll say to her like, so this is what I do, this is what works for me. That's probably not going to work for you. Try it. Go and talk to Sophie, try what she says too, and then go and talk to Jade and like, it's the only way to learn.
Brody: Yeah, that's the best way.
Eddy: Yeah.
Brody: Yeah. I love that.
Eddy: One thing. Um, I did actually want to ask you as well, um, you know, I, you know, with my studio, you know, I opened it with the intention of creating and offering, a safe space for clients. And I think, you know, as, as a cis het person, like, you know, I think I do have a lot of, like I've got my blinkers on for a lot of understanding of what other people experience. So, you know, I wanted to create a safe space, but I don't always have those experiences myself to know where to draw the boundaries. And you made a really interesting point about how sometimes using the safe space label can be dangerous and how, you know, there's other ways to aspire for safety for clients. Like what? Like what are your thoughts on that?
Brody: Yeah. Well, absolutely. It is something that we've talked about, you know, I think that. Um, over the last five years or so, there's been this real push and desire, uh, for safe spaces. And so, um, people have responded to that by creating spaces that they want to be safe, which is great. Like we need to experiment and learn and, and, and try. Um, but I think that they can be a real danger to, uh, to ascribing safety to our own practices and our own spaces. You know, I think the edges of that experience is about privilege, always going to be invisible to oursleves.
Eddy: Yeah.
Brody: Because it's the ... experienced, you know, I can only speak to the ways that I'm marginalized. Then I'm, you know, despite my curiosity and research and drive to learn about other people's experiences, I'm, I'm constantly like shocked and appalled by the things that other people do experience. So I think, um, in, in, in ascribing safety to our own projects, we can run the risk of patting ourselves on the back and saying, okay, I've done it. I've created a space when it's never going to be safe for everyone, you know, we're all human who have grown up in this world, and we're always going to be bringing power structures, ideas, and cultural values from the outside world. And that outside world is, is where all this shit's going down. So I think it's an unrealistic expectation to have on, on any individual or project to actually achieve safety.
It's unrealistic to offer to the people who come into the space, and it's also unrealistic to expect of ourselves as well. You know, like I make mistakes. We all make mistakes. I think it's more about how we address them when we do and how we take responsibility for them and how we learn and how we, you know, uh, uh, you know, assisting in healing where appropriate and things like that. But I think that it goes back to what I was saying about utopia and, and, um, idealism. I think it's more something to walk towards. And it's a process that will never be finished. And I think if we think about it more that way as a process, as a journey, then I think we'll do a better job of it and not make promises that we can't keep as well.
Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And then, you not, yeah you're not ... boxing yourself into one, one set of rules you're constantly striving to improve and to learn and to grow.
Brody: Yeah. And I think it's a lot healthier for ourselves as well. Like, um, I think you and I have this in common and a lot of other people do. I see a lot in tattooists in particular but maybe that's cause I know a lot of tattooers, I dunno. Um, but this, this, uh, this sort of perfectionism or this, uh. Really high expectations that we can have on ourselves can actually be really disenabling. You know? I think that even for our own health and wellbeing, it can be, it can be better to say, hey, I'm trying, I'm learning. I want to learn. And sometimes you got to make mistakes to do that, and that's really uncomfortable. But I think it's being, being humbled is important as well.
Eddy: Definitely. And just like accepting that you have privilege and that you make mistakes. But asking the people like, who are, you know, marginalized? How, how can I be better? And not expecting them to do that emotional labor for you at the same time though.
Brody: Yeah. But just trying to be curious and notice and anticipate, you know, within, within that kind of acknowledgement of limited experience.
Eddy: Yeah. It's really exciting to me that there's people like you in tattooing who are able to share those ideas and help, hopefully make the future of tattooing a much more like positive place and like our community a lot healthier.
Brody: Yeah. I mean, I think that's a pretty bright future to look towards. Yeah.
Eddy: So yeah. Before we, before we wrap it up today, is there anything that you wanted to add or talk about or share with our listeners?
Brody: I, I feel like I've, I've spoken a lot. Yeah. I feel I've said a lot. I'm pretty happy, yeah.
Eddy: Well, for anyone who wants to watch the interview with Brody today um, I'll be putting it up on YouTube. Um, and if you follow us on Instagram at not just a girl underscore tattoo, you can see regular updates and links for where to find everything. I'll also link, um, all of Brody's details and the YouTube details and everything you need to know in the, um, show notes. So please subscribe, follow and share. Please follow Brody and share their work. Um. And help spread the love of tattooing. Um, thank you so much. Brody for talking to me today. It's been such a joy. Um, and I really hope our listeners enjoyed it too. Um, everyone has a wonderful day and like, get out there and destroy normal.
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