Not Just A Girl: Made by Hand

You can listen to the twelfth episode with Amy Jones here. Or you can find this interview on YouTube with English subtitles/closed captions here.

NOT JUST A GIRL: Tattoo Podcast

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

Season 1, Episode 12: Made by Hand

Eddy: Hello, friends and welcome to Not Just A Girl, your friendly feminist tattoo podcast. I'm Eddy and I'm back to share with you the thoughts and experience as some of my favorite people in tattooing. On the 12th episode and the last of the season, we'll be talking about tattoo conventions, hand poke tattooing, and what we've learned in lockdown.

Before we begin, I would like to acknowledge the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people who are the traditional custodians of this land that was stolen and never ceded. I am honored and grateful to be on the ancestral land of the Awabakal people and I pay my respect to their Elders past and present and extend that recognition to their descendants.

Today I get to chat to one of my dearest friends, the fabulous and talented Amy Unalome. Amy works at La Flor Sagrada in Melbourne, and does some of the most beautiful and clean ornamental hand poke tattoos I've ever seen. I even have some myself. Um, I met Amy at a convention a few years back and we eventually got to tattoo each other. And I'm super grateful now to call her my friend. Thank you so much for being part of the podcast, Amy.

Amy: Oh, my gosh. Thank you for having me.

Eddy: So good. Anyway, hand poke tattoos. That's your thing, everyone knows that. Um, how does your style differ from, you know, Tebori or Ta Moko or the more traditional or tribal styles of hand poking?

Amy: Um, well, it's, it's like something that people always ask it's like, generally, like, probably a question that I get almost every single day, at least once or twice a day. And it's like, it's funny cause people say like, so like what made you choose like hand poking or what's the difference with poking than like regular tattooing? Um, I feel like, I guess like regular tattooing could mean a lot of different things, but, um, the main thing that, um, I guess what is hand poking in the sense that I do it is, um, It's basically the exact same idea of tattooing with the machine apart from you take that whole element of the machine out of that. Um, so it's just tattooing by hand. You still use the same, um, needles as you would with a machine. Um, same idea, it's just a lot more slowed down. And the motion of like piercing the skin is kind of, it's done by hand in a repetitive motion.

Eddy: Yeah. It's definitely less trauma on the skin as well. Like the ones you did on my thumbs, there's absolutely no bleed out or drop out whatsoever and the heal was so easy.

Amy: Yeah, I find, um, because the, um, technique is a lot less intense on the skin um, it definitely creates like a lot less inflammation around the tattoo. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of things that kind of go into hand poking, but definitely the method allows like a lot less intense experience.

Eddy: Yeah. It's definitely more relaxing. Like when you did the ones on my tragus, I barely like felt it. It was just kind of a really relaxing and soft experience.

Amy: Yeah. I really like, I'm really intrigued to know how like, hand poking feels on the face. Cause I'm like, Ooh, I think I'm going to like it. Like, that's something that I want to experience myself, it'd be cool.

Eddy: Yeah. Well, what brought you to that style in the first place? Because you did a trad, a normal apprenticeship, but what, what was the choice that like, why did you choose hand poking rather than machine in your apprenticeship?

Amy: Um, well, it's kind of strange how it all came about. Like, I don't think I ever sat down for like a moment and was like, I'm going to tattoo and I'm going to tattoo in this way, and this is the way I'm going to do it. It kind of will happen like quite organically and almost as if like how it was meant to be, um, like me and hand poking always kind of like went hand in hand. Um, Like my first ever experience of it, it's actually like really funny. Um, I was like eight teen, um, and I was hanging out at like a friend's house and we were like, we're punks, lets pierce each other, let's get these safety pins and put them through our noses.

And I met one of my friends. She was like, um, Oh, I um I've tattooed myself the other day. Like, do you want me to show you how it's done and I was like, hell yes, I do. Like, that sounds so bad ass. And, um, there was something so cool about a friend of mine, like being able to like mark me in such a simple way, you know? Um, so from then on really like, She did one on me and then I did one on myself and we had like ciggies in our mouths and we were like swigging whiskey at the same time...I love this. Really from then on it just kind of stuck with me. It was something that I was always kind of like, not from a sense that I don't want to go and get tattooed by machine because I did that a lot anyway, like a loved getting tattooed when I was younger, but this was like, I guess it was my way of like, being able to like literally use my hands and use some other equipment and like, tattoo that way.

And, um, I guess like the journey that led me to Australia and like led me to Melbourne. And kind of like put me where I was in a place to kind of do an apprenticeship. It was all surrounded around hand poking. And, um, I remember before I even like, thought about getting an apprenticeship, I didn't even think that hand poking was something people did professionally. I thought there was, tattooing and there was traditional tribal tattooing and I just did not think that anyone would ever take like stick and poke um, seriously enough to for it to be a thing.

Eddy: Yeah. Cause I guess it was really seen as just a part of like the punk community or, you know, more what's the word like? Not mainstream.

Amy: Yeah, it was kind of like anti-establishment like prison tattoo, DIY stick n poke, spiritual, maybe like. I mean, I don't know. Maybe if I just didn't realize that at the time, but it, when I kind of started professionally, like it wasn't really around as much I was aware of in like Melbourne at the time.

Eddy: Yeah. Well, you were the first person I'd heard of who was a professional tattooer, who did their tattoos with like by hand rather than by machine. Like everyone else I was aware of in Australia anyway, only talking about Australia here, like everyone else that I was aware of who was doing stick and poke was doing it at home and hadn't ever done an actual apprenticeship.

Amy: Yeah, well, don't get me wrong. Like obviously, like my, my story kind of comes from that place of like, you know, I found hand poking in a, in a world that wasn't professional. Um, and obviously, like, I kind of experimented with that on myself, not in a professional environment. Um, and it wasn't until kind of like, Became aware to me like that. Um, there was a few artists in England, um, and Europe and some in America that I kind of started noticing like, Whoa, these people, uh, um, hand poking and they're doing it professionally, and they're doing it out of a studio. They're like, Holy crap, this is something that like, can be done. You know.

Eddy: Like Gary Burns, like so amazing.

Amy: Yeah. And like, you know, Grace, like Grace Neutral, she was probably one of the first, um, hand poke tattooist in a professional environment that I really kind of like followed that career and their work and was like looking at her go, like it's cool. People can do it.

Eddy: Yeah and there's been a lot of like, discussion about what a professional tattooer means like, do you have to have done a certain kind of apprenticeship or, you know, can you just be mentored or can you just decide to do it? And like what, where do you stand on that?

Amy: That's, that's always been like a kind of issue that's surrounded me. Um, I was fortunate enough that when I decided that hand poking tattooing in general was something that I, I wanted to do professionally. There was no other choice to me than to search out a traditional apprenticeship. And for me, the only way to, to be able to work within a studio environment was to approach in that way and kind of like ask around and look for a professional apprenticeship. Mainly with the idea that I would, um, be tattooing with machine. So, um, it wasn't until I decided that that was something that I wanted to do. I started looking around for apprenticeships and like, don't get me wrong, it is not easy. You don't just fall into it, especially when you're telling people in professional shops that like, yeah, I really want to do um hand poke like, I'd prefer to really concentrate on that rather than, um, move to machine. Like a lot of people told me to like F off.

Eddy: It took me like four years to get an apprenticeship.

Amy: Yeah. It's not easy. And, and like this, I guess. This is the kind of like the wall that I hit is that I, because that's the way that I entered the tattoo industry and I did do a formal apprenticeship and I was really fortunate enough to, um, work with tattooers that, um, gave like gave time to me and showed me things that, you know, that they would kind of show me everything they know about tattooing and then kind of helped me almost like turn that into, like, how am I getting use to hand poke? Like no one actually physically sat me down and showed me how to like, do a hand poke tattoo. Um, but I guess it's, it's hard because like hand poke and stick n poke tattooing is something that kind of is associated more with a free vibe, you know, like do it at home.

Um, maybe you might not think that you do do like a traditional apprenticeship in that sense, but I kind of entered the industry surrounded by a very old school mentality and a very kind of, if you want to be in the industry, this is the way that you get at that. And not only from like a perspective of like learning how to tattoo properly, but like learning how to tattoo safely, um, which is really important to me. But like, I honestly think in the past I've had like, quite straightforward views about that and I kind of really want to acknowledge that, like, there's not one way to do an apprenticeship.

Eddy: Absolutely.

Amy: And people learn in different ways. I think the old school apprenticeship in the sense that, you know, The ones that we might've experienced. Um, it's definitely a lot different nowadays and creating like a safe and, um, like nice environment to learn how to tattoo in is very important. But I also think it's still super important to do it in a, um, in a studio environment, because that way you'll really learn how to do it safely. But, um, yeah, I know a lot of people have entered the industry life without the traditional kind of sense of it, but I guess, yeah. I mean, I don't know any other way.

Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like it's more prevalent in hand poking to people to just start at home and then suddenly get a job in the studio without having had that training and real understanding of the techniques they're using, um, you know, blood pathogen training, just understanding how to work with clients. And, you know, some of these people might be incredibly talented and bring a lot to tattooing, but it's also detrimental in some ways to the customer, because when you work at a professional studio, the customer assumes that you have had professional training and yeah, I'm the same. Like I used to be very staunch on my views of there's only one way to answer tattooing and it's this way. And I've changed my mind on that a lot and opened it up to understanding that there are many ways you can enter tattooing, but at the same time, I think you do still need a mentor. Someone who is a professional tattooer. To show you whether it be in a formal or informal capacity, how to tattoo, how to understand the skin, different techniques and mostly client safety.

Amy: Absolutely. Like there's not been kind of like one person in particular that's been responsible for showing me and teaching me like studio and shop etiquette and, um, safe practice. Um, I've picked that up from working at a few different places with so many different people. And like, I think in the tattoo community we're fortunate enough to share information with each other and support each other and make suggestions.

Eddy: Yeah.

Amy: I think without that, that's when you really fall into like some kind of trouble, because maybe you assume that, you know what you're doing and without that kind of peer support in a safe environment, um, you can be making mistakes that you didn't even know exist.

Eddy: Exactly.

Amy: You know so I would have conversations with clients that had been like oh, you know, like, Oh, I got this done um, by a professional, you know, it was clean and it don't worry it was really safe. And it's like, well, like um first and foremost I'm glad that the client felt safe and happy to do so, but at the same part, and like, you know, you as a tattooist you can kind of like see things in their tattoo that they're talking about and you're like, You know, you hear about how the setup was and you see the way that the tattoo has been done. And you know, it, wasn't done by a person with professional training, but that's not important to some people, I guess it's always been important to me.

Eddy: Yeah, same. And I think for me, as soon as someone takes money for that service, that's when it crosses the line, like. You know, I mean, we've all done things that we shouldn't have done when we started out, you know, we've all had rocky backgrounds or whatever, especially, you know, kind of 10, 20 years ago, people coming into it it was a very different world. Yeah, if client's safety and, and people's health, isn't our first priority we really need to rethink whether we're in it for the right reasons as well, because it's a huge responsibility. And, you know, there's a huge difference between somebody tattooing themselves at home for fun and them taking money and taking clients and pretending they know what they're doing.

Amy: Yeah. And I think that's why we kind of like run into trouble sometimes with the idea of what hand poke tattooing is. Um, it's also like referred to a lot of the time is, um, stick n poke, which also, you know, like upon like searching the internet, what that might mean. It definitely means a lot to different people. Um, I mean, like, I don't want to be the one that kind of says what hand poke or what stick and poke tattoo is. It's like, some people love the element that it's like unregulated and, um, it's kind of got a little bit more freedom in it because you either have to, um, stick to the kind of guidelines of machine tattooing. Um, but for me kind of, as soon as I decided that it was going to be something that I provide to the public and to clients it's really important always and it always has been for me to be able to do it properly, I guess. Like, I guess like what's the proper way to do it, but I, yeah, I mean, I, I've kind of been like raised up through this kind of very professional, um, surroundings in the industry and, and maybe it's sometimes been to my detriment, like.

There's this like a sense of like a hand poke community, um, and also a tattoo community. And I've never really liked found a place in between the two. I don't feel like I've ever really been accepted into one or the other and I guess like that I can say the same if I'm trying to say like what's professional and what's not like, I'm kind of like, I dunno. I feel like it's a bit more fluid than this being like...

Eddy: Yeah. Yeah. And it must be hard kind of being between the two worlds, like, you know, tattooers who use machines being like, you're not a real tattooer cause you don't use machines. Even though we only started using machines when electricity came along and then like, yeah, the hand poke community saying, Oh, you work in a shop, you call yourself professional. You're not, you know, DIY enough for us, it's really, that's a hard balance.

Amy: I've always felt like, especially, um, when I started tattooing professionally, there was really like very, very few other like professional hand poke artists that I knew of in Australia. So it was always hard, um, kind of feeling, um, like always felt like a bit of an outsider. Like I wasn't kind of included in the tattoo community cause you know, everybody in the shop would be talking about like techniques of machine or, you know, there's Amy, she's just doin her silly little hand pokes, like when you're going to pick a machine up, you know? And then when hand poke started becoming really popular, um, I was kind of taught by my peers to like kind of rage out against that because they hadn't done professional apprenticeships like I had. So that then segregated me from the hand poked community, um, which I kind of longed for the whole time that I've been tattooing, um, and it hasn't really been until the last few years when I've met um, a lot of tattoo is, um, like yourself. And when I kind of got involved with Not Just A Girl that I was like, Oh, Whoa, okay. Like, Now tattooers are kind of excepting me, but I'm still not accepted in, I don't know. I've always kind of been a bit of a floater in that sense, but.

Eddy: Yeah, that's so typical.

Amy: Definitely.

Eddy: Oh

Amy: Sorry.

Eddy: I was going to say that's so typical of that toxic side of tattooing that we create cliques and then we set them against each other. It's just. Like, I remember working in a studio in Newcastle where it wasn't particularly pleasant, but I remember when I was trying to reach out to other artists, they were like, why, why would you talk to them? They are your competition. You should hate them. And you see that recurring in tattooing, like, you know, Oh, girls can't work together because they're too much drama. They don't get along. They'll hate each other. And then, yeah, like machine tattooers against hand pokers and there's a lot of hate.

Amy: I had a, I had a client, um, come to me months and months ago. And they told me that that walked into like a local shop. And, you know, just to have a look, do have a walk in maybe, fun little tattoo and they'd had a hand poke tattoo by me previously. And they said to the receptionist, like, Oh, do you have any hand poke artists here? Like, I've had one of those before and I really liked another one. And they replied with, we don't acknowledge that as a professional form of tattooing. So no, we don't do it at this shop. And I was just like, man, that sucks. Because like I put so much time and energy into kind of like creating that professional element to what I do that is like, Oh, okay. Everyone's not keen on it yet. That's okay.

Eddy: How can you not recognize something that's a part of your own history?

Amy: Yeah. I mean, I like, I have no idea who the person was that said that, I was like, Oh, okay, well come and get one from me again. I guess like, yeah.

Eddy: That's so mad to me. Like all tattooing in every single culture has started as a hand poke form of tattooing.

Amy: Yeah. I mean, this is it's again, it's kind of like that divide between like, what is what, and I don't think that we need, like, we need to really kind of label it like that. Like, I don't think that like, machine tattooers should label hand poke as non-professional. But I also think that like maybe professional hand poke tattooers should not label like stick n poke as, you know, like. I mean, like, as long as somebody's doing it in a studio, like in a safe environment and they've taken the time to kind of, um, educate themselves with safe practice and you know, it's all healthy. Um, so like, who am I to say? What is, and what isn't, what should be, and I can't get mad when other people say the same about me, but I think I've been super lucky in that, like I've managed to work with a lot of people that do acknowledge what I do and do, um, make me feel very welcome, um, in tattooing now and like to the point where like, even tattooers want to get tattoos from me, like that means the world that like that's kind of like being accepted that my work is like, okay.

Eddy: That's the best feeling when a tattooer books in with you.

Amy: It's so excited about it, but at the same time, I'm like F off I'm too nervous, so scary. Like when you asked to get tattooed by me, I was like heart attack city like, just can't deal with it. But somehow I managed to get through.

Eddy: Yeah. It's one of those things where you have like, have a little bit of a panic attack in the bathroom beforehand. I dunno, you come at it shaking like, Oh my God, I hope I settle down before I finished this tattoo.

Amy: Literally, like before I tattoo anyone I have to have like a little like pow wow in the, like toilet, like, yeah, I've got this. I remember, like my apprenticeship, every time the door opened, I would run to the toilet. So everybody thought that I had like some kind of like toilet problem. Cause that's just like my safe place. It's just, I don't know, those ones that are the scariest ones are the ones that I seem to just like, something just comes over you and you can just do it.

Eddy: Yep.

Amy: I don't know.

Eddy: Fight or flight.

Amy: Yeah, man. Yeah.

Eddy: Yeah. Talking about being nervous tattooing, you have done so many conventions and I I'm always a nervous wreck at conventions, but I mean, you've you're like old hat at it now?

Amy: I, um, I was really, really fortunate in that my first like four years of tattooing. Um, it was very heavily concentrated on the, um, convention circuit, um, not only in Australia, but I was really, really lucky to be able to travel, um, worldwide, to do them and like, don't get me wrong. I still get so nervous, like social anxiety to the max. Um, but the, I think the more you do, the more you kind of like realize that, um, everyone's in the same boat. Um, and you can kind of like drown out the, um, the craziness and the noise around you because you still have these like really awesome intimate connections of each person that like, kind of walks up to your booth so. I still get nervous, but it does get easier.

Eddy: It's such a weird experience. Like, you know, doing this thing, you usually do every day, but having hundreds of people walking past just watching you it's yeah. It's, why do we do it?

Amy: I don't know. It's crazy too cause I remember going to a convention before I was a tattooer and walking around and I was looking at all these artists being like, Whoa, like this is so cool. Like, can you imagine being able to do this one day? So, I think every convention that I do now, I have like a moment of gratitude being like, man, I'm like, I'm so like stoked that I'm like, yeah. And this is where I wanted to be. Um, it's yeah, it's really, it's cool. It's definitely a perk of my job for sure.

Eddy: Yeah. I think the best bit of conventions is just the socializing with other tattooers and the friends you make. Like you, I met you at a convention and now you're one of my best friends and yeah. It's you can make some really amazing connections there.

Amy: Yeah. I mean like a lot of the time, the things that I say to other people at conventions and like, did I just like, I went to like shake their hand and high five them at the same time. And I was like, woooo hey. Get like, so like doofussy and these like, um, interections especially with tattoo artists that I admire and look up to I'm literally like a jibbering like mess, like probably saying dumb stuff when we met. But, um, that it's certain conventions that I've been to the effort that other tattooers make to make connections with you is just like, it's so cool. And I've yeah. Um, a really great thing about it is meeting the artists, especially, um, within like our female community. Like we're always checking in with each other at conventions. It's really cute.

Eddy: It is. Yeah. I know what you mean by going goofy though. Like my husband says that whenever, he can see me talking to like another tattooer at the convention that I've got, like T-Rex arms happening where I'm like holding my hands up to my chest because I'm so nervous and don't know what to do with them.

Amy: I dont know what you're talking about. Literally, I, my biggest thing is I would walk around with this like kind of Stepford wives smile on my face. Like, Hello, nice to meet you. What are you doing? Have you been busy?

Eddy: It's like the same three questions too.

Amy: Always on repeat, like all weekend. Um, it's so cool because then like the way that conventions are set up and each person has their own booth to kind of, um, Show their own self in that small area. It really like sparks conversation between you and other artists and you buy prints, you buy like merchandise. Yeah. It really kind of like helps you bond really quickly especially because at conventions people are like what are you doing? What is that? Where's your machine? Is that all you packed? You just packed those few things, what the F.

Eddy: You have like the smallest convention bag ever.

Amy: I do. Um, it's a very fortunate thing about hand poking is that I do not carry a lot of equipment, so it's very good for traveling.

Eddy: You can easily, you get through customs.

Amy: This is true. Paddlepop sticks? Chopsticks? Yes.

Eddy: Yeah, well we have a few conventions hopefully planned for like ourselves and you know, we've already been planning how we're going to deck our booth to be all amazing if these conventions ever happen.

Amy: I know. I mean like travel is a bit of a strange thing right now, but um definitely the kind of the conventions that I want to attend they're everywhere they're all around the world. And it's just, um, that kind of, I didn't realize how lucky that we had it when we had the ability to travel as much as we did these really, really, really great conventions put on by really great people. Um, I look forward to when we can do them again.

Eddy: What, what have been your favorite convention so far?

Amy: Oh man. Um, I would say experience wise, um, I was really lucky to attend the, um, the first ever, um, South African Tattoo convention. Um, and what was incredible about that was, um, the, the organizers, um, It was kind of more like family run. Um, the, the organizers, putting so much work to kind of have all of these international artists come together in such a magical place, but also make us feel so welcome and, um, really showcase their country and their culture to us and help us bond and put on this. It was just such an incredible time. Um, there was so many cool tattooers there and we got to do some cool stuff. Um, so the, the kind of close connection, of that one was really fabulous. Um, the same for this one that I attend often which is the, um, the New Zealand Tattoo convention. Again, just like run by people that really care about tattooing, really care about not only making the artist comfortable, but they really, really like include the public and in what happens. And, um, just to get just the general vibe is more like, everyone's welcome. Let's all be friends. Let's hang out. It's so fun.

Eddy: It's so lovely at the New Zealand one, how they paid tribute to, um, Like the local customs and traditions by putting on the like welcome to country. I don't know what, like haka, is it

Amy: The haka? Yeah.

Eddy: Yeah. Yeah its so beautiful.

Amy: Their traditional welcome. It's, yeah. And it's totally respectful of, um, the, the town and the country that it's held in. And um, Having like so many artists come from around the world, um, and the whole, it's a small town and everyone's so welcoming, they're so keen to show you about their like history and their country. It's so fab. It's really cool.

Eddy: It's awesome. I can't wait till the next one. And I think the thing I love about it is, you know, And, and that it's a huge difference between the Australian conventions and the New Zealand or other international ones that I've seen, like where it is actually focused on tattoo art specifically. And they don't use women's bodies to sell their merchandise. You know, we're not objectified and you know, in Australia, it's very, very disappointing. How, you know, from my personal experience, how I've been treated at conventions.

Amy: Yeah. I mean, it's a shame. Um, I think it has been acknowledged in the past that maybe some of the, um, kind of entertainment and advertising aspects of Australian conventions might have been a little bit more, um, concentrated on, um, exploitation of, um, women's bodies and sexuality in tattooing. And I think a lot of female tattooists had kind of spoken up about maybe like, you know, in advertisements, maybe show us tattooing rather than walking a catwalk. But, um, you know, I definitely understand that you need to provide a certain element of entertainment maybe for the general public come into a tattoo show, but I think it's also really important that it's all inclusive in that sense and the entertainment isn't more of like a physical representation of what tattooing is, and more kind of like let's include everybody and make it about the art.

Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it's advertised as a family friendly event, make it family friendly, like, you know, instead of, you know, burlesque, and now I have absolutely no problem with burlesque, pole dancers, anything like that. I absolutely love that stuff, but I also love it in the correct venue, you know, at lunchtime, at a family friendly event, a little child's not going to understand what they're seeing and you know, that removes the parents' ability to censor what their children are seeing and, you know, introduce them to it at an appropriate time. And. Yeah, that and the way that they went about it, like my last convention, you know, I was hearing things like her tits are gonna set you on fire over the loudspeaker. And I'm just like, I'm a, I'm a woman and I'm sitting here trying to do a tattoo and I'm hearing stuff like that and that makes me feel unsafe and uncomfortable. And you know, when I've gone to Literary Ink or New Zealand, for example, I haven't had that at all. I feel very much just another tattooer. You know, I'm not separate at all.

Amy: That's quite shocking to hear. Um, like I guess that I would say that's the main difference. Maybe the entertainment that's provided during, um, The conventions compared to ones that I've been to before. Um definitely, I don't really, haven't really attended an Australian convention in a short while. But um.

Eddy: Same, yeah, it's been about 3 years.

Amy: Yeah, um acknowledged that they'd been kind of making some changes within how how that kind of worked and what kind of entertainment was supplied, but it's just that it was just a different vibe. It was kind of like, this is the way that it is, and this is one set way and this is how it's going to be. And, um, yeah, it was sometimes it's a little disappointing.

Eddy: Yeah. It sucks not being heard and included in tattooing and yeah. Like, I think things are starting to change though. There are people who are actually making more effort. Like I haven't been there yet, but I've heard that the Wellington convention, again, in New Zealand, like that they actually actively striving for more equality in and diversity in the artists they choose to invite and having it very artist focused.

Amy: That's really cool. Yeah. That's something that I've definitely found. Um, a lot of, uh, conventions that I've been to is, um, the artists attending, um, super diverse, really cool. Um, so many different people traveling from not only within that country, but internationally as well. And it's this, this kind of magical boiling pot of lots of, um, tattooers coming together and sharing experiences and techniques and ideas. It's really cool.

Eddy: It's so good. I feel like, you know, All of the bullshit aside, the way that it's marketed, the entertainment. I think the money making side of it, the stuff that the business people involved do, I think that aside the actual act of a whole bunch of tattooers coming together and, you know, doing tattoos and talking to each other and sharing, you know, their skills and their ideas that is like absolutely magical. And that's hopefully something we can continue to do.

Amy: At the end of the day, I think what's important is that the, um, the tattooers was attending conventions, feel comfortable and included, the clients attending tattoo conventions, feel comfortable and included and families attending. And, um, you know, a lot of hard work goes into, um, putting these things together. I've seen it first hand and there's a lot of different ideas and a lot of different, um, people that want certain things, everyone's got different ideas of how they want it done, but at the end of the day, um, having that space for everyone to come together, I think it's really cool and important.

Eddy: Yeah, absolutely. And you can put aside all of the, the fighting and focus on safety and comfort, and then everything's good.

Amy: You'd hope so.

Eddy: It will be interesting to see what conventions are like now, you know, with social distancing and all of these other things that we don't know how long they're going to be a part of our society for it. I wonder how it'll change the way that people attend to conventions and interact with artists.

Amy: Yeah. I think a lot of things are gonna change, um, especially, yeah, you can look back and be like, man, like we had it real good for awhile there, but I guess if this has given us anything, it's a chance to maybe shake things up and umm have a look at the way we do things and yeah, move forward for the better, I hope, and hopefully we can kind of get back to that convention lifestyle at some point. Travel again.

Eddy: Yeah hopefully. Well talking about like.

Amy: A couple of drinks.

Eddy: Yes, talking about like, you know, changing things up and looking at the way you do things, you know, that's something that we've talked about a lot over the lockdown period. Just like how this event has changed, our perspective. And, um, what has isolation taught you?

Amy: Um, honestly, I feel really awful that it's a terrible thing that's happened and there's a lot of like bad things to come out of it. I think personally, for me, I've found the time really, really good for me. Um, really just having like the chance, like. When you put all of your life into something and all of your energy and time into something that you love so much, having that taken away from you is like terrifying. And it was something that I feared in more ways than one, if I was going to have certain things taken away from me and, um, Yeah. I mean, like having the time to stop, um, like not, you know, not go to work every day and just kind of like take a moment to step back from tattooing and then think like, Whoa, what's going on. Um, uh, found it to be like, yeah, really refreshing, really good time to just kind of reassess kind of what's important in life. And what, what do you care about and what you can do with your time and energy? So I've found it like quite quite good for the old mental health.

Eddy: And you know you're a Brit in, in Australia. So you've had like no support from the government. So you've, you know, to be so positive and to get through with no help and not being able to, you know, see your family and all that. Like that's, that's amazing that you've had such a positive outlook.

Amy: Yeah. Well, I, um, I am like fortunate and privileged enough to, um, have a really good support network around me. Um, then, you know, like, I've found the time to use my creativity, to support myself during the time. I also like really had to like take a step back from creativity for a while as well. And just kind of, um, Yeah think about things that are actually, you know, like if tattooing isn't all of my life and all consuming, what is it that I care about?

Eddy: Yeah.

Amy: Um.

Eddy: And that's not a question and we would ask ourselves very often, like, what else is there and what other ways can I contribute?

Amy: Well, that was, that was the big thing for me. Um, I like at first, I was like, I'm going to do so many things. Like I got really creative, um, had a really great time experimenting with painting and making art to kind of make prints. Um, but kind of when all that slowed down, I really wanted to stop and think like, I don't currently feel like I'm contributing anything to my community. And I do think that like ... as a tattooer. It, yeah, it really does kind of benefit people in a lot of ways. But when, when you don't have that, I was like, yeah, what, what can I do to kind of help? What would I want to do if I didn't do this? And I guess it kind of all kind of came back around to that whole, like, I really want to be able to help people in life like and contribute in ways that like, I hadn't really thought about before. And, um, yeah, I guess like one, one kind of like something that's like really close to my heart and something that I really liked discovered was important to me as I want to, um, kind of when I get the chance to take a little bit of a step away from tattooing and concentrate more on maybe, um, counseling.

Eddy: Thats awesome.

Amy: Yeah. Within, um, family violence.

Eddy: Yeah.

Amy: Um, And just, you know, like this, that, this kind of thing, it's, it's always that it's always happening. It doesn't stop. And even during a crisis, like what happened, like charities still need help. People still need volunteers. So yeah, I really kind of decided that's something that I want to kind of, um, work towards, um, a career within, at some point.

Eddy: That's brilliant. And it's really good that you've allowed this time to reflect on that and like, discover that desire in yourself because you know, people are experiencing, you know, domestic violence in their home at alarming rates in lockdown. It's, it's been really devastating, and you know, there's not enough help for people in those situations. So the more people like yourself who actually genuinely care and want to help who are out there, the better the world's going to be.

Amy: Yeah just like Um, anything that you can do really, um, I kind of like looked into doing some volunteer work um, during this time, like, I didn't feel like I was doing a lot myself. So like I found it was important to educate myself with ways to find out how you can help, um, in the future. Um, and there's lots of really good organizations that I kind of looked into that you can can volunteer with, that you can work for you can, um, help out at, um, Yeah, it was cool. I like, I just never had like a chance in my life to kind of stop and think what would I do if I wasn't tattooing, I found like in those times of reflection as it's like, what else do I care about? Yeah.

Eddy: It makes sense as well, because I feel like as a tattooer, we do tend to have a well developed empathy. You know, we have to like really care about our customers. And well not have to, we do, care about our customers and, you know, keep them safe and, you know, ease them through what's a painful process. So it makes sense that that empathy can translate into other careers and other options. And, you know, I feel like those two things can work well together as well. Like, you know, kind of trauma and tattooing.

Amy: Hundred percent. Um, I would say honestly for me, one of the main things about my practice is I love to make people feel comfortable. It's like one of the most important things that I do that the minute a client walks through the door and comes and sits in my space and kind of like trusts me to put that body in a vulnerable position and is like my number one to make people feel happy and comfortable and feel that they can talk about anything.

And I didn't realize that how much of a massive part of like my job that is and how important it is. I guess I've always just found that I can talk to people really well. Um, and like, it makes me feel good when people say that they had a nice experience because I managed to make them feel comfortable. And that that will never change for me that something that like, it is always so important, but, and it's crazy that you find how, as soon as your client's comfortable, like they almost start to open up to you and, you know, they find a lot of therapy within that tattoo session as well. It's kind of thing that I'm already quite active daily and doing like, it just, I just want people to feel like they can tell me that they're feeling okay. That they're comfortable while they're getting tattooed. They can talk to me if they want to. Um, it's one of the most magical parts of what we do, I think is those intimate moments with people. Um seeing somebody kind of like come into your space and just feel completely at ease for you to, you know, Mark their body.

Eddy: Yeah. It takes a lot of trust for sure. And you know, you're, you're always so amazing with your clients. Like whenever I've seen you working here at my studio, whenever I've been visiting La Flor, you're so welcoming and so kind to them and you can, you can see that, like they leave happy and they leave like really loving their tattoo.

Amy: Yeah, I mean like, like you said, it's like a trust that people put in you and you don't want to, you don't want to take that for granted for a second. And I want, I want them to know that how thankful I am that they've trusted me to tattoo them. So if we can have a chat, if we can have a laugh, if we can have a really positive experience, then that. That to me is like, hopefully they're going to walk away loving the tattoo that they have aesthetically, but also walk away loving the experience that they had personally. And I'm really lucky in that I get a lot of people kind of come back to me for that reason being like, it was nice. I felt good. We had a good time. I like what I got, like tattooin doesn't have to be this scary painful experience. It can be actually really lovely.

Eddy: Yeah. I'd love for our listeners to, to know that as well, that, you know, if you're ever in a situation where you don't feel safe getting tattooed, you know, you can, you can leave. Like you should not ever feel unsafe. You should not ever feel uncomfortable or unwelcome, like, you know, and you have a right to walk away as well. You know, nobody ever has a right to treat you badly and you're paying for a luxury service and that comes with certain behaviors. And I would like to mention, if it's okay, Amy, um, you know, there's been a lot of talk in the last few days about some things going on in tattooing with a Tattoo Me Too movement. Um, and I want to use this platform while I've got it to to ask tattooers to look after their clients and to look after each other. You know, it's really unfair that we ask victims to be the ones to speak out and to talk about these situations because it's retraumatizing for them and it's very unfair. But, you know, as, as tattooers, we should be keeping an eye on things in the studio. And if we see another artist or a client behaving in a way that's inappropriate we need to put a stop to it. We need to call it out. We need to fire artists who misbehave. You know, we are the ones with the power in this situation and we can affect change in the industry to make it better so that, you know, there's more, tattooers like Amy, for example, who do treat her artists with her clients with respect.

Amy: It's super Um, yeah, so many people have talked about maybe some experiences that they might've had in a tattoo shop where, and this is talking, like it happened a while ago and it still happens today where clients have felt uncomfortable to maybe speak up about something that they haven't felt a hundred percent comfortable with. And, um, I know that like I'm fortunate enough to work with people that are very conscious about, um, clients comfort and safety and be surrounded by tattooists that, um, do respect everybody. Um, but yeah, but yeah, if anyone would ever feel uncomfortable, um, You know, not happy with the situation they're in a tattoo shop it's totally, it's totally the time to like speak up and say something by and for artists. Like, noone should feel uncomfortable.

Eddy: And you're right about being conscious because you know, we do have the power in the situation and a lot of people feel awkward. I know that before I was a tattooer I've been in situations where I wasn't happy with the design. I wasn't happy with the situation, but I got the tattoo anyway, because, and even, actually, since being a tattooer that's still happened to me, you know, because they have this power over you. So we need to, to learn, to be conscious of our clients' reactions to us and to, you know, endeavor, to get consent for everything and to just do our best, like, you know, no, one's perfect. You know, we're all learning, but as long as we're at least trying, I think, you know, it can really improve things for everybody.

Amy: A hundred percent. Never assume that your client, just because they're there are comfortable. Um, I think it's important to always ask consent even before you start to draw on skin before you start to, um, hold their body in a certain way to put a stencil on, like it's yeah. You can sense, like you can get a sense for when people feel at ease but it's always important to ask as well.

Eddy: Yeah. Even little things like the photograph, you know, if you know, if it's something that you would maybe feel a bit self conscious having that photograph on the internet, just check with them first. Like, you know, are you comfortable with this, this photo being posted?

Amy: Absolutely. Um, I'm quite, um, lucky in the sense that a lot of my female clients feel comfortable enough for me to tattoo belly, um, and, you know, take in a photo as like an artist. You know, you kind of want to record your work. Um, for personal kind of prep, you know, have a look. Yeah kind of record what you've done, but you've got to remember that that's not like a piece of paper, that's your art work on a person's body. And that, that person, you know, has the right to say what they do and don't want, um, kind of like photographed or recorded. But yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm really grateful that, um, people feel comfortable, comfortable enough with me to have me tattoo certain body parts and, um, Yeah. Well, it's always important to check if they're happy, if you want to take a photo.

Eddy: Exactly. And there's always like a way you can make the photos you know, more comfortable for the customer. Like I did some really cute spiderwebs, like under a girl's, um, butt cheeks, and, you know, she, wasn't very comfortable with having her butt exposed. So we just like draped the fabric of her skirt around so you couldn't see any of her butt, but you could still you see the spider webs and it was like, yep, that's good to go. I don't care if anyone else likes the photo or not. She likes it.

Amy: Yeah, gorgeous. I remember when I guested at FLT actually, you guys have really beautiful, um, like floral shaped nipple covers, and everyone's like, Oh, I'm going to need some of these for like fashion afterwards, these are fab.

Eddy: I know, I felt bad that sometimes you see, you know, when people are getting their sternum tattoo and they've got stickers over their nipples and I'm like, that would be so uncomfortable. So I'm going to get a proper pasty. It's got the correct adhesive. It's got the little cover.

Amy: Yeah The old rip off afterwards would be a bit of a situation.

Eddy: Oh, that's funny. Well, we've had a good chat. It's been awesome. Is there anything we missed or is there anything you wanted to share with our listeners?

Amy: I mean, not particularly. I feel like, I feel like we've been on the phone for like 10 minutes. Like normally we just like.

Eddy: Yeah.

Amy: Chat for hours and hours and hours about everything tattoo. Um.

Eddy: I'm pretty sure one night we talked for like four hours.

Amy: My face hurts after I talked to you sometimes because I'm laughing or smiling the whole time or like screaming about something. Um, it's funny. It's like, Oh, we're going to do a podcast, but it's just going to be like talking to each other on the phone. But then like, as soon as the whole camera thing happened, I was like, I'm going to be weird.

Eddy: My little T-rex arms. Yeah.

Amy: Hello, have you been busy.

Eddy: I know. I get instantly nervous.

Amy: Yeah. I just I just freak out. Um, I guess I'm just like really grateful to have been given a platform to, um, talk about a bunch of different things, um, and the chance to be able to talk about tattooing.

Um, yeah, sorry, interruption from the phone call. I was basically just saying that I'm very grateful to have had a platform to talk about, um, tattooing mainly, um, If anyone's ever interested in learning anything about what hand poke is, I'm always happy to share the knowledge that I have. Um, like I said, I'm kind of like, not the, I'm not the one to say what is, or what isn't, um, to be expected of hand poking, but I can definitely talk professional hand poking. Um, and it's really cool to be involved in something that allows us to, uh, Have a bit of a chat and have a voice in the industry. And I'm truly grateful.

Eddy: Thank you so much for being a part of it. It's been like it's been, and the best, the last few weeks, just talking to all you amazing artists and I've learnt a great deal. And you know, as much as I'm certainly not a professional interviewer, it's been really great just to have lovely conversations about all the best bits of tattooing.

Amy: Yeah. It's um, it's been so fun. I've been listening to the ones that have been released so far, and I'm just like, it's literally just like listening to your friends, chat, hearing people's really cool stuff. I'm like, Oh, cool. Yeah. Like I like talk about that all the time with Eddy and it's really nice to hear what everyone else is up to and uh, I mean, like, uh, like in the past year or two within tattooing I've just met so many amazing people, um, and I feel just like, so lucky to kind of, it might not have been the place that I thought that I would be included in, but I'm so like lucky to have finally found, um, a support network within tattooing, um, and a very inclusive kind of, um, welcoming community of people in tattooing and yeah, I feel like finally, like I have a home it's really nice.

Eddy: Absolutely. I feel, I feel the same way. It's so it feels at home having that, that happy little community that we have.

Amy: Yeah, we're very fortunate.

Eddy: Well for our listeners, you can find the footage of this chat on YouTube with English subtitles. Um, you can follow us on Instagram at not just a girl underscore tattoo for a regular updates, you can also find lots of other information on the blog. I'll link everything in the show notes and be sure to give Amy a follow and send her lots of love because she's amazing and she deserves it. Thank you so much, Amy, for chatting to me today and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We really appreciate you. And I hope everyone has a fabulous day and remembers to fuck patriarchy.

Amy: Ah yas.